"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

[Renathras]

If it means anything, the crowd that wants job diversity to return is louder than it was in ShB.

This is probably true. But I think that's something most everyone can agree on. People like options. No one really wants every Job to be "just like the other 3 Jobs in this role, just with different visual effects". While SFX absolutely CAN and DO make playing something distinct from playing something else, it should be more than just that.

I was always against homogenization in WoW, and I am in FFXIV. Those of you that see my posts in opposition to the "make healers more complex!" posts will, if you're paying attention, also note that I consistently advocate for changing the healers so that they WILL be more diverse and less identical copies of each other. Advocating that WHM stay the same as today...while changing either 2 or all 3 of the other healers...IS advocating for diversity. If WHM (and/or SGE) stayed as it is today while SCH, AST, and SGE were each changed to play differently (surely there's some design for healers that isn't just "one DoT, one spam, and one or maybe two nukes"), that WOULD be diversity.

I think pretty much everyone supports diversity.

Indeed, if nothing else, I think that's one thing that we collectively CAN all agree on.

...hm, maybe someone should make a thread about THAT since you'd be hard pressed to find many people arguing AGAINST Job/Class identity and diversity, I'd wager. (Not saying NO ONE, but...probably not many.)

[Sebazy]

The truth is, these people are elitists that want to lock other people out of content.

Let me just emphasise this point of yours. It’s all that needs to be said really

[Renathras]

You really don't understand that people who are asking for more complex DPS rotation on healer roles just only wants to do something that is NOT SPAMMING ONE BUTTON for 10 min straight ?

I don't understand THAT, because THAT is not what people want. As I noted in my post, when I mention something like "Okay, let's make AST and SCH harder and leave WHM as it is today, and they all do the same damage, but WHM does so while just spamming Glare vs AST/SCH having to juggle 7 DoTs", the response is always "NOOOOO!!!! If I'm doing all this more WORK, I should be REWARDED FOR IT". But if your reward was just "not being bored", then "not being bored" is the reward. People asking for more complex DPS rotations are asking for either more damage OR for all the healer rotations to be made more complex so "lazy" or "bad" players aren't able to compete with them.

It seriously is NOT just about not being bored. Read the first two pages of this thread - I think even just the FIRST page of this thread - and you'll see plenty of the "bad players aren't competent and shouldn't be clearing content" posts. That is CLEARLY not just a "I want to not be bored" thing to say...

It will not increase difficulty on the healer roles,

Narrator: It will, in fact, increase the difficulty on the healer roles...

bad will still be bad, but good healer will be able to have an interesting gameplay to do. That's all.

Translation: Players who aren't as skilled as you will fail content while you will be a god among the lesser mortals.
...in other words, exactly what I said above.

.

In the next episode of "Proving Ren is Right":

hmm yes effort equal reward hmm yes this foreign concept tot he average XIV player apparently it's almost as if games reward you for going for more difficult things or rewards you for putting int he time or effort to find ways to cheese the game and make it easier. no no this isn't a game after all that's proposterous

Again, is the argument you don't want to be bored, or is the argument you want people not as dedicated and/or skilled as you to not get to clear content, or for it to be far more painful for them to manage to do so?

The two are NOT the same argument...

EDIT:

Let me just emphasise this point of yours. It’s all that needs to be said really

Hehe, not QUITE sure if you're agreeing with me or not but...(optimistically hopeful)...yes..?

[Sebazy]

Another question.

What difference does it make to me if someone else can’t clear X content?

I think you’re ruining your point with paranoia

[pikalovr]

This is probably true. But I think that's something most everyone can agree on. People like options. No one really wants every Job to be "just like the other 3 Jobs in this role, just with different visual effects". While SFX absolutely CAN and DO make playing something distinct from playing something else, it should be more than just that.

I was always against homogenization in WoW, and I am in FFXIV. Those of you that see my posts in opposition to the "make healers more complex!" posts will, if you're paying attention, also note that I consistently advocate for changing the healers so that they WILL be more diverse and less identical copies of each other. Advocating that WHM stay the same as today...while changing either 2 or all 3 of the other healers...IS advocating for diversity. If WHM (and/or SGE) stayed as it is today while SCH, AST, and SGE were each changed to play differently (surely there's some design for healers that isn't just "one DoT, one spam, and one or maybe two nukes"), that WOULD be diversity.

I think pretty much everyone supports diversity.

Indeed, if nothing else, I think that's one thing that we collectively CAN all agree on.

...hm, maybe someone should make a thread about THAT since you'd be hard pressed to find many people arguing AGAINST Job/Class identity and diversity, I'd wager. (Not saying NO ONE, but...probably not many.)

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...or-varied-jobs but please do pleasure me more with your horrendous takes

[UkcsAlias]

I was always against homogenization in WoW, and I am in FFXIV.

The problem why this happens is balance itself. Without doing this, you generaly will end up with beginner classes becoming obsolete since they can never get the same value (or due to being easier will prevent the other classes). By making most of them have a very basic and similar baseline, it generaly forces balance to exist between the classes. You can vary a little in these, but usualy it generaly just becomes something of a similar sort.

The problem is the way healers work. All the variety exists in the healing, and in damage they are just the same. Yes, SGE requires 2 presses for a DoT, but outside of that, its still the same. This is why the healers just feel too similar. And they could have done a lot more variety here. Even just a simple example:
Healer A: 1 DPS ability with 200 potency
Healer B: a 3 DPS combo with potency values of 150,200,250 (all still just 1 button)
Healer C: 2 DPS buttons, 1 dealing 200 potency, the other dealing 150 but charging another 50 onto the first up to 400.

Healer B might on that be weaker in timing, but for this we can decide to boost this by simply make the combo not get disrupted by healing. The mechanics then feel diffirent, but the net result is pretty much the same. Healer C on that even introduces potency management to optimize the 400 potency attack. And yet, in net DPS they are the same. And on beginner level all feel the same. But here comes the issue at higher levels. This 400 potency attack is far less likely to have wasted potency vs the 3rd attack of healer B.

And yet, this is still fully homogenized as they all are effectively the same in DPS, and involve similar difficulty to get decent dps output (the potential 10% varieties are not relevant for most content and can just be ignored). But here comes another issue. For a player, why would they go to C if A does basicly the same at less effort? That extra potential overkilling potency loss is realy not going to matter to them, and therefor to promote the class you end up boosting it to become mandatory.
This creates a spiral of complaints. Yet if they simply just accept that this is balanced because of minimal improvements that players can involve, its better.

The current issue is however, all healers only have 1 single target DPS ability that is supposed to be spammed, and its spammed for 80% during a dungeon. Thats the real problem. Hence request to change the combat systems for them is requested.

[Kazelus]

I don't understand THAT, because THAT is not what people want. As I noted in my post, when I mention something like "Okay, let's make AST and SCH harder and leave WHM as it is today, and they all do the same damage, but WHM does so while just spamming Glare vs AST/SCH having to juggle 7 DoTs", the response is always "NOOOOO!!!! If I'm doing all this more WORK, I should be REWARDED FOR IT". But if your reward was just "not being bored", then "not being bored" is the reward. People asking for more complex DPS rotations are asking for either more damage OR for all the healer rotations to be made more complex so "lazy" or "bad" players aren't able to compete with them.

It seriously is NOT just about not being bored. Read the first two pages of this thread - I think even just the FIRST page of this thread - and you'll see plenty of the "bad players aren't competent and shouldn't be clearing content" posts. That is CLEARLY not just a "I want to not be bored" thing to say...



Narrator: It will, in fact, increase the difficulty on the healer roles...



Translation: Players who aren't as skilled as you will fail content while you will be a god among the lesser mortals.
...in other words, exactly what I said above.

.

In the next episode of "Proving Ren is Right":



Again, is the argument you don't want to be bored, or is the argument you want people not as dedicated and/or skilled as you to not get to clear content, or for it to be far more painful for them to manage to do so?

The two are NOT the same argument...

EDIT:



Hehe, not QUITE sure if you're agreeing with me or not but...(optimistically hopeful)...yes..?

They won't fail more content than now. People who can clear EX/Savage as a healer will still be able to do so with more complex rotation. People who can't handle more complex rotation have in first nothing to do in such content at the start.

And healer must have a same level of complexity, you can't keep up the bottom complexity of an actual healer and increase the others, that's not really a good idea.

The difficulty will increase for people who CARES, that's all.

[Komarimono]

I can see both sides, but won't lie... Would be nice to I dunno, get at least a 1 2 3 combo as Healer? Something to weave in between heals, since if in a good group, you're rarely healing. I understand if in a bad group, and damage galore you're busy, but... As ya improve, doing something more then 1,1,1,1,1,1 in my case, and sometimes refreshing my DoT with C,1 as a Sage, does get kinda boring.

[pikalovr]

snip

hell even the beginner jobs being less wanted can be countered with actual proper balancing as long as you don't do like whats happening with SMN RDM BLM where even an average BLM outdoes them both in rDPS. average damage should've been in favor for SMN and RDM since they have to rely on the party for alot of their rDPS and at optimal play BLM should be around 750-1kDPS more thats still a fair damage increase for the difficulty difference and it doesn't promote taking a BLM anyways for average play. since there's no reason to take an average SMN or RDM outside of maybe utility for prog which does have it's own value but should be seen as being part of the reason it's optimal DPS is still lower than BLM alongside the difficulty curve a utility tax as people would call it

in average non speed clears you'd still pick SMna dn RDM for their utility and they do still do more average rDPS than BLM. but if you wanted to optimize fights or have faith in your group/the BLM player. you can pick up BLM and get higher DPS while progging which could lead to a faster first clear. cause damage downs from rez sickness plays a bigger part than most people realize in the overall damage output of a fight

[Floortank]

I think this illuminates a greater issue with the community: the "I got mine" mentality. That's to say, whenever we discuss having issues with certain content or lack thereof, wanting certain QoL features, or asking for a level of depth that used to be there but was removed recently, there's always a few combatting it because they enjoy what there is now and don't want the devs to begin catering to us, even if it would come at no cost to the content they enjoy.

Savage and Ultimate exist for you to have more pressure on you as a healer. Until healing is shown to be disproportionately easy in the hardest content, they're not gonna make the role more complicated.