What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

????? Huh?! I don't think you understand my point.

You aren't telling us who said what, when they said it, where they said it, or in what context, so there's no way for anyone else to comment on it beyond a vague response of "Okay, sure".

The entire point of linking to old posts is to specifically show who said what, and in what context. Which is essentially the same purpose as quote tags. So that people know what you're talking about.

If you need further demonstration on why it matters, from now on, you could try replying to specific posts in this thread without using any quotes and just the basic "Reply" button. It will become much easier for people to get completely lost.

I specifically said it’s the same people arguing against it. It’s not hard to see who said “the people who dislike graha are a minority.” Lol. My point is, the same people saying that are the same ones offering pushback against people saying “the people who dislike Endwalker are a minority.” It’s a silencing tactic and it’s a bit messed up to play the double standard game. Tbh i find the whole argument of minority majority etc to be extremely stupid and just overall….not important. Especially when in the end it’s used as a silencing tactic.

[CrownySuccubus]

I specifically said it’s the same people arguing against it.

And who are those people?! You've provided a distinction without a difference.

t’s not hard to see who said “the people who dislike graha are a minority.” Lol. My point is, the same people saying that are the same ones offering pushback against people saying “the people who dislike Endwalker are a minority.” It’s a silencing tactic and it’s a bit messed up to play the double standard game.

Hang on. The point you made earlier was:

The thing is though, is that this is the argument a lot of people use to show that more people are dissatisfied with EW than there seems to be. So im just curious why its okay(not saying you just in general) to say it under those circumstances, but then when it comes to Graha its used as a way to denote the criticism.

People who try to artificially inflate the number of dissatisfied players aren't the same people saying "the people who dislike Endwalker are a minority".

EDIT: I see where I'm confused now. You said they're "offering pushback". Let me apologize and correct myself:

It’s not hard to see who said “the people who dislike graha are a minority.” Lol.

Saying that alone? Sure. However...

My point is, the same people saying that are the same ones offering pushback against people saying “the people who dislike Endwalker are a minority.”

I'm going to be 100% honest and say I haven't noticed anybody who said BOTH of those things. So I still don't know who you're talking about. I legitimately have no idea who said that or when, so I genuinely cannot say anything about it other than "Yeah, they're wrong." Finding people who say disliking G'raha is the minority by itself? Sure. Easy. But someone who ALSO says that more people are dissatisfied with EW than it seems to be? I legitimately have no idea who you mean and wouldn't even know where to look for that.

Tbh i find the whole argument of minority majority etc to be extremely stupid and just overall….not important. Especially when in the end it’s used as a silencing tactic.

You're the person who said "this is how many people, including myself perceive him" [as pushy], though. No one is dismissing your opinion or the fact that you feel that way. But that simply means it's subjective.

[Brinne]

And who are those people?! You've provided a distinction without a difference.

Kizuya said "the same people" you mentioned in your post, so that would be me and tokinokanatae, I think.

[CrownySuccubus]

Kizuya said "the same people" you mentioned in your post, so that would be me and tokinokanatae, I think.

Well, specifically, he said:

My point is, the same people saying that are the same ones offering pushback against people saying “the people who dislike Endwalker are a minority.”

Did the two of you do that? Because I honestly didn't see it. But I'll try rereading through your posts when I get the chance.

[Brinne]

Did the two of you do that? Because I honestly didn't see it. But I'll try rereading through your posts when I get the chance.

Not that I can remember, but again, if someone sees me doing that, they're free to call me out. I'd appreciate it, actually.

[tokinokanatae]

I didn't. I think it's obvious that both G'raha Tia and Endwalker are genuinely popular with the overall playerbase--with a vocal minority that have a variety of issues with both-- and I don't see the point of denying that.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And who are those people?! You've provided a distinction without a difference.



Hang on. The point you made earlier was:



People who try to artificially inflate the number of dissatisfied players aren't the same people saying "the people who dislike Endwalker are a minority".

EDIT: I see where I'm confused now. You said they're "offering pushback". Let me apologize and correct myself:



Saying that alone? Sure. However...



I'm going to be 100% honest and say I haven't noticed anybody who said BOTH of those things. So I still don't know who you're talking about. I legitimately have no idea who said that or when, so I genuinely cannot say anything about it other than "Yeah, they're wrong." Finding people who say disliking G'raha is the minority by itself? Sure. Easy. But someone who ALSO says that more people are dissatisfied with EW than it seems to be? I legitimately have no idea who you mean and wouldn't even know where to look for that.



You're the person who said "this is how many people, including myself perceive him" [as pushy], though. No one is dismissing your opinion or the fact that you feel that way. But that simply means it's subjective.

I’m not sure if there’s confusion or what so i’ll try to be a bit more specific. When i’m referring to those people saying it(and let me clarify, i’m fairly certain it something both myself and many regular posters have said), it’s in reference to when people come in here to deflect criticism by saying “You’re the minority, the majority loves endwalker.” Many of us have argued against that saying it’s a pretty shitty argument and it honestly doesn’t matter. So my point is, if we agree it’s a shitty argument why is it being used to deflect criticism of a character?

[Theodric]

...anyway, here's some Jullus:



Source: https://twitter.com/ebelcities/statu...63048633192452

To me he's the best thing that came out of Endwalker so I do hope we see more of him in 6.2 and beyond!

[CrownySuccubus]

So my point is, if we agree it’s a shitty argument why is it being used to deflect criticism of a character?

Well, like I said;

You're the person who said "this is how many people, including myself perceive him" [as pushy], though. No one is dismissing your opinion or the fact that you feel that way. But that simply means it's subjective.

To be as clear as possible:

1) Your criticism is based on how you felt about the character.

2) No one is deflecting your opinion, and you have the right to feel that way. Someone else, likewise, can feel the opposite.

3) But you ALSO said "many others feel the same way", which introduces numbers into the argument.

4) If numbers are part of the argument, then it becomes majority vs minority. Or tribalism.

4) If you think numbers are (in your own terms) a shitty argument, then it goes back to being your opinion. Which, I repeat, you are entitled to have....but thus becomes highly subjective.

[aveyond-dreams]

All I know is if I found myself having to tolerate characters as pushy as G'raha Tia and writing that was unable to commit to any meaningful sacrifices or development when I started playing, I wouldn't have stayed on as long as I did. None of the other "anime husbands" for lack of a better term have ever been pushed onto the player with as much force as the catboy. Not Aymeric, not Hien, and not Ardbert.

Maybe if so many things didn't go wrong with Endwalker's story I would be able to overlook certain failings in favor of the overall picture, but the more time that passes the more all the flaws are laid bare. Endwalker should have been the ultimate final battle of Season 1. Instead it was a circus with only one zone that was thematically on point and executed well being Garlemald, along with the 2nd visit to Thavnair. Labyrinthos was simply atrocious, the Moon was turned into a joke and failed to deliver on what Ascian/Zodiark fans were expecting, Elpis did enormous damage to the entire story, and Ultima Thule demanded too much suspension of disbelief when it was obvious it was just a series of fakeouts one after the other.

I can only wonder how far the social media and streamer crowd will be able to carry this game if the writing continues on its downward spiral. As a Final Fantasy fan I feel betrayed by the fact that the story can't seem to just take itself seriously these days. Or worse, when it does you have a sector of the playerbase that apparently is turned off by deeper and darker storylines but will gush nonstop over the slice of life and fanservice scenes. Humour that fits with the theme and game world is one thing, but eating McDonalds at the end of the world? Are you kidding me? (Note that gameplay is reduced further beyond mere QoL fixes in order to accommodate those players as well.)

This is the kind of stuff that made me fall in love with FFXIV:



This is the stuff that makes me want to uninstall FFXIV:


I came here for the mix of medieval vs. magitek conflict. The redheaded catboy with schoolgirl hair did not sell me on this game, and if my first encounter with him was that grotesque CGI model of him in the Endwalker trailer I would have been turned off. It's like they took Lucy from the Chronicles of Narnia, mixed it with a cat, and then gave it the voice of an adult male. I do not dare imagine what terrors await us when the graphics update arrives and they continue to push the "realistic" G'raha Tia onto us. At that point it goes from running from a stalker to running from a horror movie monster.

I didn't. I think it's obvious that both G'raha Tia and Endwalker are genuinely popular with the overall playerbase--with a vocal minority that have a variety of issues with both-- and I don't see the point of denying that.

I cannot wait for someone as uncompromising and as no-nonsense as Asmongold to experience what was done to this character. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is intelligent enough to see through not only the messy writing revolving around G'raha Tia but also - gasps - Venat as well. What if all it takes is one streamer to actually speak out against the ridiculousness to unmask and give voice to other people who stay silent on this issue? Because you don't see me posting on twitter about this because I don't feel like getting dogpiled by their stans and being called every name in the book. On social media, it feels like either you like the plushies or you become a target. The fanbase for this game is already challenging enough to deal with, even someone who is used to being the target of their ire can get tired of it after a while.

In the end it's easy for me to focus and hone in onto this specific character because out of all of them he is guilty of the most problems attached to the current writing. The twins and Y'shtola are infuriating enough with their behavior, but at least they aren't so overtly written as the community hugs plushie. Any characters with grit are neutered one after the other or otherwise pushed to the side-remember when Gaius didn't even show up to Garlemald? (Ah but he was too busy dressing up as a chicken for Easter.) Another mind-boggling moment that I wasn't prepared to forgive until I saw how the zone actually turned out. Otherwise it would have been yet another disaster.