What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[SentioftheHoukai]

Simple. They had an army. We had a WOL.

That said, Ishgard abandoning its isolationism made sense. That was imposed by a tyrannical theocracy to keep people ignorant and secure said religious dictator's power hold.

But now that you mention it, I can't help but notice that most cases of the WOL ending an isolationist society results from "They have X and we need X to save the world. Therefore, we have to force them to give us X", which basically comes across as a 15th-Century "How to Justify Colonial Expansion" manual. I mean, yeah, the fact that the player usually needs to upturn some society to get what they need to save the world is both true and not exactly new to RPGs, but it IS noticeable how often it happens to the Scions.

No offense, but the WoL died from Black Rose. We're not some unfallible deity, if Garlemald in its prime threw the worst it had to offer at us and they all dogpiled us I'm rather certain we'd die. We're not a freaking Super Saiyan, or a character in a musou plowing through literal regiments of enemy soldiers simultaneously. The only reason the threat Garlemald proffered was defanged was because Zenos slaughtered them all offscreen so the Garlemald expansion didn't have to happen.

Same. Especially after the NieR crossover doubled down on Emet's 12k years of "hatred and heartbreak". I could accept what Brinne said about Emet not wanting to upset the WoL, but the leap to commending Venat was too much. I can't help but wonder if that was also Yoshi-P's doing because it was so character inconsistent and didn't match with the surrounding dialog. "We need to have fan favorite, Emet, praise Venat too to really sell her character!" Speaking of which, did anyone else notice his Elpis description of her essentially paints her as a Mary Sue? She's apparently the best there is at everything. :| This also seems in conflict with his other dialog that suggests he didn't like her even back then.

This worries me, tbqh what with how Y'shtola seems to be leading the next patch cycle/possible expansion. Y'shtola feels like a developer's mouthpiece more than a character to me these days. Black Mage job switch, the most fanatically devoted to Hydaelyn of all the Scions, etc. Feels like we're gearing up to be smashed in the face with more faulty ideology with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

[CrownySuccubus]

No offense, but the WoL died from Black Rose. We're not some unfallible deity, if Garlemald in its prime threw the worst it had to offer at us and they all dogpiled us I'm rather certain we'd die. We're not a freaking Super Saiyan, or a character in a musou plowing through literal regiments of enemy soldiers simultaneously. The only reason the threat Garlemald proffered was defanged was because Zenos slaughtered them all offscreen so the Garlemald expansion didn't have to happen.

No offense, but you're overreacting to a single line that was meant as a joke.

No s--t the WOL isn't invincible. That doesn't change the fact that they have fought and/or defeated an impossible number of threats up to and including the literal embodiment of oblivion itself.

[Carin-Eri]

No offense, but you're overreacting to a single line that was meant as a joke.

No s--t the WOL isn't invincible. That doesn't change the fact that they have fought and/or defeated an impossible number of threats up to and including the literal embodiment of oblivion itself.

Outside of alternate timelines it's also worth mentioning the final fight against Zenos, or rather it's conclusion. That was certainly a reminder that, determination and Echo notwithstanding, the WoLs body is still mortal and it was pretty clear that the WoL would've died if the emergency teleportation device hadn't appeared.

[Brinne]

Unfortunately, this was just one more in a series of traveling around the world pressuring people into joining the fight and, worse, because the aforementioned Eorzean Alliance decided to grant Ilberd's dying wish. I still don't understand how we won against Garlemald. It should've been an absolute slaughter with Ala Mhigo and Doma being crushed under magitek foot.

There's a dark joke in here somewhere about how Venat and Ilberd, with their ideologies and methods, secured victory and achieved everything they wanted, whereas Emet-Selch's point of failure and his downfall is stated to be his "kindness," but I probably don't have the heart or the brainpower to properly formulate it at this moment.

[Rulakir]

There's a dark joke in here somewhere about how Venat and Ilberd, with their ideologies and methods, secured victory and achieved everything they wanted, whereas Emet-Selch's point of failure and his downfall is stated to be his "kindness," but I probably don't have the heart or the brainpower to properly formulate it at this moment.

Nice guys finish last? :P

Emet was undone by the Azem soul. That was his Achilles' Heel and Venat knew it. I don't know how familiar you are with other language translations, but "matchmaker" is used in almost every (all?) other version except EN in his UT dialog. Purely speculation on my part, but I can't help but feel that Venat specifically used Emet's love for Azem against him. She'd thrown in her lot with the WoL and, aside from knowing the future, would've known that would be his weakness. I don't know if that was the intention, but if it was it makes her exponentially worse in my eyes because that's such a sadistic thing to do to someone. Every time I think Emet couldn't be any more tragic I learn that, yes, yes he can.

[Xirean]

This current topic legit makes me wonder how much like dynasty warriors the WoL vs soldiers would actually look like.

[Theodric]

As an aside, the recent discussion reminded me of this thread:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ly-good-though

[Lauront]

Endwalker also smacks the player over the head with how much Venat loves you, throws in a time loop to make it seem like Venat's actions had to happen that way, has the fan faves all bend over backwards - sometimes in ways that don't fit them - to reinforce this, underplays the Sundering by not really showing it in game and uses the Plenty as a caricature to give the veneer of plausibility to Venat's fears (which would only potentially materialise if her people did not change, made worse by the fact that they did not get the information they needed or the chance to decide for themselves on this), and more besides. Because of the scale of the act EW was trying to justify, and all the foregoing narrative gaslighting, it's much harder to ignore or gloss over it, but yeah, if you don't look too hard at what's going on, you may think what Venat did was necessary and not that big a deal. Show that Nier crossover scene, maybe the debates that took place in Ere our curtain falls, and throw in some nuanced discussion over it as with the Omega quest line, and we might have seen a different impression being formed by those who pay less close attention to the lore. Either way, yes, the SB story on closer analysis does seem to have involved an awful lot of plot convenience for the protagonists.

[Brinne]

Well, like I said, even if I squinted hard at these elements at the time, and can talk about them if prompted, it's not like I felt the need to throw a fit or post on the official forums or anything because of them, either. I mostly rolled my eyes and moved on, besides some private discussions purely for fun (some of us are weirdoes who actively enjoy dissecting writing elements that do and don't work for us.) I can rail on Hien all day, but Hydaelyn is obviously on another level, and fundamentally, Hien amounts to an arc character that I can mostly ignore in the bigger picture - Hydaelyn's actions form the foundational lore for this entire story and world, and had a direct, devastating impact on the storylines and characters that truly resonated with me.

But I think it's true you can sort of identify a similar emotional thread in terms of someone who generally enjoys an expansion, but isn't that invested in the plot specifically - and for whom pointing out the issues doesn't change their overall feelings that much, even if they acknowledge what you're saying.

[Krokov]

Lackluster? It explained the story why the FD happened and the back story of Hydealyn along with other Ancients. It shows hope and light overcoming darkness and despair.