What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[leanansi]

I enjoyed endwalker. My only real complaint was that the lopporits plot dragged a bit, but I just wasn't that into the cute/comedic tone shift there at the same time as the big Zodiark reveal. It fell a little short for me, but overall I really enjoyed the whole expansion.

The parts in Garlemald and Thavnair were especially good, imo. I liked the society they created with Thavnair and Radz at Han. I was never a fan of Garlemald, but I felt what we saw of it was very emotionally raw and some of the more compelling scenes were there. I like Jullus quite a bit and would be happy to see more of him. I remember the scene where he was so happy to have warm soup with the Eorzeans after everything he'd been through and then the Garleans all immediately being tempered. It was one of the most intense moments of the expansion, for me, because I really wanted to save him and I was genuinely worried that was it for him.

It seems like the Ancients are where the most division stems in the community. Personally, I liked Venat the least of the group and Emet the most. I relate most to Emet. I can understand being willing to do anything to get back the people you loved and the world you knew, even if he did some very terrible things. I don't relate to Venat's choice to hide the truth from the others and her decision to undergo the sundering is honestly absurd to me. If everyone on the planet has to lose their individual sense of self and be ripped into parts, then honestly I don't feel it's even worth it. I would have rather kept working on a real solution until I died as myself than go along with her plan and lose everything, anyway. I don't relate to her choice at all and I also don't really relate to her belief that new life was worth more than saving their lost loved ones. At the same time, though, I don't actually hate her as a character or feel like the game was unfairly slanted towards her. I think both Venat and Emet are presented in a pretty sympathetic light considering all they'd both done and I can disagree with a character and still feel they're good for the story.

I don't really understand in what way some people were expecting a better end for the Ancients. The sundering had to have happened or the game just.. undoes itself? And even if I personally like Emet, it's pretty absurd to think the existing sapient beings across multiple worlds are all going to agree to give up their own personhood so he can have his friends back. Obviously the main character and crew were going to decline the rejoining. I would have been happy to have Emet renounce the rejoinings and become an ally, but I'm also not entirely surprised it didn't go that way. Emet and Venat are the type of characters that usually do die in mainstream media, because it's difficult to excuse the kind of choices they've made to a broad audience. "Death" in this game is pretty transient, though, so I wouldn't be surprised to see more of them. I also wouldn't be opposed to it.

[Rulakir]

I don't know how we're not supposed to have an overwhelmingly positive read of Venat/Hydaelyn. Literally the only negative dialog option you're given towards her is to say you can't trust her on the boat, which is long before you discover what all she's responsible for doing and why. When you are able to confront her again after Elpis, it's just a tearful gush fest no matter what dialog options you choose. This includes the Scions who, despite Hydaelyn being the embodiment of numerous antagonists they have stood against in the past, have nothing but adoration for her. (Going to note, again, that Hydaelyn tempering makes EW make sense.) Nobody but Venat herself speaks ill of what she's done and she has no regrets. Not to mention the her "Answers" music video, end of credits scene where she's the only one who turns back and smiles, the post credits art, the fact that you get a minion of her at the end named "herois", etc. Plus, in EN localization she's the one credited with forestalling the Final Days. They honestly couldn't have been any more overbearing about it without coming through the screen and beating you unconscious with a Hydaelyn body pillow.

The Omega quest chain is also a side quest locked behind a raid, so not everyone has done it or is even aware it exists. Those options were needed during the MSQ. Said quest also still paints Emet (suggested as your "worst enemy") and the Ascians as being wholly in the wrong, while still praising Venat (to the extent Omega says you speak of her in fond/friendly terms) and even suggesting Hermes' actions were for the betterment of mankind. It was a meager attempt to inject nuance after 6.0 was completely lacking in it. Personally speaking, I'd consider the person who tore my soul apart over their ideology to be the bigger enemy, but that's just me.

Also, I don't know why y'all are still discussing the 3rd sacrifice when that was a non-issue for Venat. She sundered the world because of The Plenty and dynamis. We've gone over this hundreds of times, but I guess "3rD sAcRiFiCe" is all some people have to fall back on.

[Teraq]

It was a meager attempt to inject nuance after 6.0 was completely lacking in it.

Emphasis on the fact that the Omega quest just came out now. I'm not sure we know when it was written, but the February Q&A made it quite obvious the devs had gotten significant pushback about Venat (and even came across as a little defensive...?). Might be an attempt to mend things. IMO it was good, but nowhere near enough.

And yeah good post, it was my reaction to everything during and after Elpis when I first went through the MSQ early December... Very real discomfort with what the plot was, to me, obviously trying to push about Venat (and Hermes). It isn't morally grey when Venat is the only one hosting her own pity party by her lonesome, telling you what she did was cruel – and even that could be interpreted as merely apologizing to the Sundered for the living conditions she inflicted on them, not to her own people for literally erasing their entire identity and culture – but have the rest of the characters pat her on the back and the plot very heavily imply her way was the only way out, by throwing at the wall everything that would stick: Ancients not being able to directly interact with Dynamis, Dynamis (and astronomy??) being an apparently very niche topic in a society of scholars, the Ancients-Plenty parallel that honestly makes me, queen of procrastination, jealous of how lazy it is, their inability to Forge Ahead™ and accept Suffering™, apparently nobody ever investigating the Elpis incident or Hermes's magical memory wiping device that affected one of the most important government officials on the entire planet, Venat's fear of nobody believing her, her fear of people panicking, her fear of Hermes blowing up, the implied justification of all those fears as Right because she was Azem and thus well traveled and experienced like no one else, the closed time loop justification (even though we just had a story that resulted in a separate timeline)...

It's just, wow. Please stop! PLEASE! I GET IT! I'M FORGING AHEAD AS WE SPEAK, PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE!

[Rulakir]

her fear of nobody believing her, her fear of people panicking, her fear of Hermes blowing up

Seeing a lot of fear here, it's almost like that was her driving motivation!

I would pay to see Hermes blow up though, literally. Also, yeah, it's quite convenient that she only acknowledges her sins to the people that she made incapable of remembering them. She noped out before Emet could tear her a new one, not that the writers would actually have him act in character when it comes to her.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Both of y'all are way too relevant.

Both of y'all are way too relevant. REMIX

One more point to add to all this, the Warrior of Light is ostensibly the author of the newly implemented "Unending Codex". Specifically, lore-wise its a book/diary we're writing at the urging of our very own Tataru Taru recording all the notables and deeds of the Star that is Eitherys (not that the friendly neighborhood WoL would ever let their precious Sundered call it that!).

Anyway, you know what they say. "History is written by the victors."

We are the victors of this conflict, the Ancients are the ultimate losers. Considering some of the things stated in said Codex (Hydaelyn being the Will of the Star, Hydaelyn being the one who forestalled the Final Days, Venat being a "woman who loved all life everywhere", etc.) its abundantly clear how we're intended to feel about her, in the end. We, the Warrior of Light, Saviour of the Star, Protagonist-kun of this MMORPG are literally writing the Ancients and their deeds out of Eitherys' history.

So much for all of our broken promises of "Remembering them. Remembering that they once lived." For a supreme deity that supposedly didn't consider herself a goddess, Hydaelyn's PR department sure is profiting off the royalties of the Mythos the Sundered built off of her. Even after her very death, we retain every Blessing she ever gave us. Denying all logic and lore in game. Eitherys' denizens have no respect for those who came before, how can they be trusted with the fates and welfare of those who come after?

[Jagick]

*Big Snip! Except...*
(Going to note, again, that Hydaelyn tempering makes EW make sense.)

This reminds me of the Reaper indoctrination fan theory to try to explain the god awful ending to Mass Effect 3. It was a great theory but Bioware was pissed and petty so they shot it down. I also found myself thinking we're probably tempered by Hydaelyn way back the earlier expansions. But of course I'm sure that it's not that, that would make too much sense. As such, I expect SE to deny that as well, because then they would have to outright admit Hydaelyn was manipulating and using us every step of the way.

[Theodric]

A good test as to whether the cost of something is acceptable or not is to inflict it upon the protagonists and everything around them. If they wouldn't stand for it, then there's no reason for anybody else to do so either. We already know that if someone came to the Scions and said that the people of Limsa Lominsa needed to die in order to stop a greater threat then they would stop at nothing to find a third way forward and fiercely oppose such a plan.

Of course, quite often the very same people who defend Venat and like the Scions mysteriously are firmly against the idea of any meaningful harm befalling their favourite characters. Funny, that. They're perfectly happy to demand that everything else is inflicted with disproportionate suffering and trauma, though - especially if it's a character or faction that they detest!

[Rulakir]

This reminds me of the Reaper indoctrination fan theory to try to explain the god awful ending to Mass Effect 3. It was a great theory but Bioware was pissed and petty so they shot it down. I also found myself thinking we're probably tempered by Hydaelyn way back the earlier expansions. But of course I'm sure that it's not that, that would make too much sense. As such, I expect SE to deny that as well, because then they would have to outright admit Hydaelyn was manipulating and using us every step of the way.

Hydaelyn, of course, doesn't have any of the downsides of being a primal.

By the way, why you no join our critically acclaimed discord? :P

[Jagick]

Hydaelyn, of course, doesn't have any of the downsides of being a primal.

By the way, why you no join our critically acclaimed discord? :P

I usually tend to be a person that lurks and reads a lot but doesn't actively converse, at least not often, and someone mentioned that being active was a requirement of said server. Seems better for me to just lurk this thread and chime in every now and then!

[Lauront]

It's not a requirement as such; we just put in place a reception area as some people were joining and then lurking without ever saying so much as a hello.