DSR was just solo healed

[Renathras]

Or...

Or nothing.

DPS are entirely optional in dungeons. Hell, I'd wager TANKS are. It would be a pita, but you could probably heal + 3 DPS any 4 man in this game. Likewise, people noting all tank runs of P1S work like to suggest this means healers are unnecessary, but that ALSO suggests DAMAGE DEALING JOBS are unnecessary if low damage tanks were able to clear the enrage without needing a single one, now doesn't it? This same argument likely carries to Extremes. There is ONE all class - no Job stone - Zodiark Ex run on the abacus. I know this because I was in it. (I don't run parsers, but I saw someone uploaded the run.) It was close, but I feel like if we were able to clear the add DPS check and enrage with a Gladiator, Marauder, two Conjurers, and four Pugalists, an all tank run of ZodEx is very likely entirely possible to do. Once again, does this mean Damage Dealers are unnecessary in FFXIV?

.

It's an impressive feat not done by JUST an exceptionally skilled player, but EIGHT - a full party - of exceptionally skilled players, working together, pushing their limits. It took a number of tries because they ALSO had to have luck turn just their way. They also had to cheese some mechanics to get it to work. And they brought the most overpowered of the healers that also has infinite MP along as their healer of choice to clear it.

YES, that is an exception to the rule.

But if you doubt it: Solo heal it right now and show us all how easy it is?

.

Is healing undertuned in much of the game?

Oh yes.

Does this prove healing is completely undertuned even in Ultimates and that there's no challenging content for healers in the entire game?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

[Semirhage]

Does this prove healing is completely undertuned even in Ultimates and that there's no challenging content for healers in the entire game?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic Malefic

So engaging. So expertly tuned. A zillion thrills a minute.

[Amenara]

Or nothing.

DPS are entirely optional in dungeons. Hell, I'd wager TANKS are. It would be a pita, but you could probably heal + 3 DPS any 4 man in this game. Likewise, people noting all tank runs of P1S work like to suggest this means healers are unnecessary, but that ALSO suggests DAMAGE DEALING JOBS are unnecessary if low damage tanks were able to clear the enrage without needing a single one, now doesn't it? This same argument likely carries to Extremes. There is ONE all class - no Job stone - Zodiark Ex run on the abacus. I know this because I was in it. (I don't run parsers, but I saw someone uploaded the run.) It was close, but I feel like if we were able to clear the add DPS check and enrage with a Gladiator, Marauder, two Conjurers, and four Pugalists, an all tank run of ZodEx is very likely entirely possible to do. Once again, does this mean Damage Dealers are unnecessary in FFXIV?

.

It's an impressive feat not done by JUST an exceptionally skilled player, but EIGHT - a full party - of exceptionally skilled players, working together, pushing their limits. It took a number of tries because they ALSO had to have luck turn just their way. They also had to cheese some mechanics to get it to work. And they brought the most overpowered of the healers that also has infinite MP along as their healer of choice to clear it.

YES, that is an exception to the rule.

But if you doubt it: Solo heal it right now and show us all how easy it is?

.

Is healing undertuned in much of the game?

Oh yes.

Does this prove healing is completely undertuned even in Ultimates and that there's no challenging content for healers in the entire game?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I will say as a super casual player that dungeons and EX fights are undertuned for healers, especially when it becomes more efficient to have less or no healers to run that content.

Sure, all these random group setup scenarios are probably possible in content but it doesn't mean much when they are less efficient then subbing out a healer for another dps and asking the one healer to heal more.

[Icecylee]

DPS are entirely optional in dungeons. Hell, I'd wager TANKS are. It would be a pita, but you could probably heal + 3 DPS any 4 man in this game.

This is absolutely true, you can clear any dungeon with any set of four jobs you want, nothing is tuned in a way that would prevent it. It would be a LOT slower without a single DPS, though. And clearing content faster is objectively better than clearing it slower, especially when we're taking about content you're largely only doing to farm currency. There's no benefit to a purposefully slower run though, other than perhaps the novelty of amusing yourself once or twice by going in with 4 healers and getting the clear. So, while yes, DPS are also by no means mandatory on the lower end of the difficulty spectrum, they're still *desirable*, and one tank that can self heal through a bigger pull while the DPS burn things faster in turn is also desirable. Healers... not so much. This is what people *actually* mean when they say they're unneeded. Not that they're unusable or anything else couldn't be dropped as well, but simply that in general if you can get away with doing so it's always better to drop as many healers as possible... and that it is also very common to be able to do that with at least one of them in most content.

[Renathras]

I will say as a super casual player that dungeons and EX fights are undertuned for healers, especially when it becomes more efficient to have less or no healers to run that content.

I always find this take...odd. Doing HydEx as a fresh 90, healing was absolutely needed and I had to go through about as many practice parties as I did Titania before clear. Some people just have REAL problems with some mechanics. (It's like P1S - Fourfold makes perfect sense to me, but several days of PFs proved to me that it WASN'T for a lot of the other people I was getting in parties with...)

Part of this comes with comparing prog vs farm. Farming, ZodEx only needs 1 healer. Prog, I was in groups that were dying to things left and right and even some that had trouble clearing the 4 spheres add phase. In the all class/no Job stone run I did, someone even remarked we were clearing the add phase better with no Job stones than many of the early learning parties were. So part of this is that the fights are tuned about right for at level gear, prog, and the first week or three of farming. It's after that, once everyone knows the fights and the mechanics and has better gear and weapons, that they feel undertuned. But go run Coils now (considered very difficult at the time) and they'll likely be far easier, even synced, than they were at level just from the ilevel scaling alone.

<snip>

Honestly, you have a good take that I somewhat agree with. I DISAGREE that people *actually* mean that, though. I've seen threads from people using that to argue - and I mean this literally - that healers should be removed from the game. While MOST people in that thread had the sanity to say no to that proposal, most basically agreed with it that it means no one needs to/should take healers in 4 man runs and other content. That's not an argument of optimization or speed, it's an argument of "If it's not needed in 4 mans, that means there's something wrong with its design"; but based on that, we must conclude that DPS and Tanks in FFXIV are designed poorly as well.

Which...MAY be true. But my issue is that people aren't generally arguing that other than some peripheral arguments that self-sustain may be a BIT too high.

As we agree: That can be said of literally every role in the game at present.

EDIT:

Also, from the Reddit thread:

They brought all the other jobs that can help heal. Paladin had like 16 clemencies, RPR for the aoe heals, DNC for curing waltz, monk for mantra, RDM had 30 vercures, even SMN had 9 physicks.

When you have your other Jobs healing basically as much as an extra healer...

[ForteNightshade]

I always find this take...odd. Doing HydEx as a fresh 90, healing was absolutely needed

Except we have objective proof it wasn't because people literally did it with the base i570 gear everyone had access to right from the conclusion of Endwalker. Both Hydaelyn and Zodiark do such paltry damage throughout the fight you didn't need either healer. Which is the saddest state we have ever seen EX Primals. Of course, most groups weren't going to be skilled enough to get away that but it wasn't uncommon to see solo healer runs of either fight within the first few days. Even that is still terrible from an optics perspective. The optimal comp fresh into endgame content is dropping a healer.

You go on to mention some people are simply bad at mechanics, thus justifying the need for at least one healer if not two. This is precisely the problem healer mains have. Their role is only worthwhile if other people have no idea what they're doing. A good run of P1S even early on means both healers are little more than gimped DPS. In fact, I'll pull my group from day one prog. 46% and 62% of my AST and SGE's casts were on just Fall Malefic and Dosis III, respectively. This isn't omitting cards or their DoT. Therefore, the actual DPS to healing ratio would be even more comically one-sided. On that clear, we had six deaths (one being brick) and twenty-eight damage downs. That's how much of a complete joke P1S is. While yes, he's the first boss and the first tier is notoriously undertuned. This is going overboard. Two healers clearly aren't needed if you can still beat his enrage with this much of a gong show.

Tanks aren't well designed either, by the way. What puts them a step above healers is they actually have something to fall back on: DPS rotations. Even the often mocked Warrior at least has something to do that makes them feel good and engaging to play. Healers simply don't have that. If the group is half-way decent, you're a crappy DPS and nothing else.

[Renathras]

Except we have objective proof it wasn't because people literally did it with the base i570 gear everyone had access to right from the conclusion of Endwalker. Both Hydaelyn and Zodiark do such paltry damage throughout the fight you didn't need either healer. Which is the saddest state we have ever seen EX Primals. Of course, most groups weren't going to be skilled enough to get away that

That's...kind of my point. If most groups aren't able to do it, then it isn't the general situation. If most groups were still failing or just clearing with 2 healers, than suggesting that it's undertuned would be saying none of those people should have been clearing (since tuning it high enough the groups that WERE doing it with single healers likely would mean too much healing for these other groups to handle). And, again, I was talking about progression and early runs, when people HADN'T outright memorized the entire fights so they could do them in their sleep.

You go on to mention some people are simply bad at mechanics, thus justifying the need for at least one healer if not two. This is precisely the problem healer mains have.

No, I'm talking about tuning. There is an issue that as people get better, healers have progressively less to do. But the contra position is that if groups simply aren't able to clear at all early on (when mistakes are being made while learning the fight), then people won't be clearing to get content on farm in the first place.

While yes, he's the first boss and the first tier is notoriously undertuned. This is going overboard. Two healers clearly aren't needed if you can still beat his enrage with this much of a gong show.

I feel I've said this same thing...though I think in another thread.

Tanks aren't well designed either, by the way. What puts them a step above healers is they actually have something to fall back on: DPS rotations. Even the often mocked Warrior at least has something to do that makes them feel good and engaging to play. Healers simply don't have that. If the group is half-way decent, you're a crappy DPS and nothing else.

I honestly don't get this. I don't "feel good and engaging" on a Tank more than on a Healer. I find both feel good and engaging to play. /shrug

[ForteNightshade]

That's...kind of my point. If most groups aren't able to do it, then it isn't the general situation. If most groups were still failing or just clearing with 2 healers, than suggesting that it's undertuned would be saying none of those people should have been clearing (since tuning it high enough the groups that WERE doing it with single healers likely would mean too much healing for these other groups to handle). And, again, I was talking about progression and early runs, when people HADN'T outright memorized the entire fights so they could do them in their sleep.

You're missing the point though. If the fights are so laughably undertuned that no healers are required, it means bringing two gives them almost nothing to do. Hence why healers at all skill levels have been complaining how bored they've become. A lot of players at the EX level overestimate the difficulty of Primals or simply throw up a PF without even caring about the comp. It should also be noted a big reason for strict comp adherent actually has to do with FFlogs. In order to parse under the Standard category, you must bring a 2/2/4 comp. Therefore, two healers are required despite not being necessary. I can all but guarantee you if this were to change every static from the upper midcore and higher would be forcing one of their healers onto a Melee/Black Mage in Savage content. This whole tier has no strict two healer requirements.

Progression shouldn't be the only consideration here though. Warrior, for example, is arguably the best progression tank and worst at farming. Despite this, it's still fun and engaging to play. Healers lack this duality. They're only fun when you have no idea what's going on because once people know the damage sources, their gameplay is reduced to spamming a single button.

No, I'm talking about tuning. There is an issue that as people get better, healers have progressively less to do. But the contra position is that if groups simply aren't able to clear at all early on (when mistakes are being made while learning the fight), then people won't be clearing to get content on farm in the first place.

Which goes back to my previous statement: Healers are only fun and valuable when the group has no idea what they're doing. This is an inherently flawed design because once the initial prog period is over, they have no gameplay to fall back on. I have fun playing Summoner 20+ weeks into the Savage tier; I have fun on Dark Knight, Dragoon, Ninja and Warrior. Meanwhile, my Sage friend loathed re-clears every week because she was bored on her job. There was nothing engaging because all she did was spam Dosis III for 80% of the fight.

I honestly don't get this. I don't "feel good and engaging" on a Tank more than on a Healer. I find both feel good and engaging to play. /shrug

To each their own I suppose. Although, I do have to ask what groups or content are you partaking in because I find it hard to be engaged spamming Dosis III 500 times. I don't say that as an exaggeration either. I have literally spammed that one button 500 times in 24 man raids. Very riveting, I assure you.

Now the solution isn't necessarily to up the damage on every single fight, though I do believe it's far too low. If healers had a rotation of some sort to fall back on, they'd have something to do during downtime. That is the actual crux here. The devs want accessibility both in making the healing requirements absurdly low but also making the job's non-healing components barebones to not "overwhelm" new players. In other words, the content design and job design from a healer perspective are both insultingly undertuned. If you're new or inexperienced, you aren't going to notice. The moment you become even half-way decent at healing, it will stand out like a sore thumb how irrelevant your role actually is. Even the casual players finally got a taste of this with dungeons. Warrior, in particular, has repeatedly make a mockery of dungeon content. When I can solo every single Endwalker dungeon boss from 100% on Warrior, what use are you as a healer?

Tanks and DPS have never become irrelevant. Yes, we've solo tanked or "man-moded" EX Primals but that's usually with the power of ilvl creep. Come Endwalker, you could "man-mode" the first two floors of Savage with said ilvl creep. That's... not the same thing.

[glamazon]

I’m beginning to think thru will never give us an engaging dps rotation. I’ll play my dps and tanks. Paladin is basically a heart hybrid

[Amenara]

I always find this take...odd. Doing HydEx as a fresh 90, healing was absolutely needed and I had to go through about as many practice parties as I did Titania before clear. Some people just have REAL problems with some mechanics. (It's like P1S - Fourfold makes perfect sense to me, but several days of PFs proved to me that it WASN'T for a lot of the other people I was getting in parties with...)

Part of this comes with comparing prog vs farm. Farming, ZodEx only needs 1 healer. Prog, I was in groups that were dying to things left and right and even some that had trouble clearing the 4 spheres add phase. In the all class/no Job stone run I did, someone even remarked we were clearing the add phase better with no Job stones than many of the early learning parties were. So part of this is that the fights are tuned about right for at level gear, prog, and the first week or three of farming. It's after that, once everyone knows the fights and the mechanics and has better gear and weapons, that they feel undertuned. But go run Coils now (considered very difficult at the time) and they'll likely be far easier, even synced, than they were at level just from the ilevel scaling alone.

You answered my point when you started talking about doing the fight once most people knew the mechanics. Because of how scripted every single fight in the game is, when your group figures out the pattern healers become less and less needed, thus the fights become undertuned for healers. Tanks will always have the same things they deal with, regardless of how good the party gets at a fight because tank busters/swaps, boss positioning, etc will always be the same, DPS will always have to do mechanics while executing their rotations, healers though will have less healing to do since everyone gets better at the fight so they are doing less of their job because the mechanics don't change and damage output goes down as everyone gets better. That is where the flaw in the system is and why I think it is undertuned.