Contradictions, Double Standards, Counterintuitive Design

[IllyaPrisma]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

If you think of Storm's Eye as their 30 sec DoT/Dia, Inner Release as their Presence of Mind, Orogeny/thesingletargetoneIforgetthenameof as their Assize, Overpower as their Holy, Fell Cleave/Decimate as their Afflatus Misery, and Storm's Path as their Glare, it's ALMOST the same thing as you're saying above and parallels WHM. It only has a 1-2 before Storm's Eye/Path, and a 1-2 DPS rotation, but also has no GCD heals (and all actual tanking abilities aren't GCDs), and WAR/WHM have about the same number of total Hotbar slots/buttons.

If you removed their 1-2 in their single target combo, their 1 or 2 in their AOE combo, and combined Decimate/Fell Cleave and Orogeny/X into one button instead of two, it's basically WHM in tanking form. Complete with the party healing.

"wArRioR aNd wHiTeMagE aRe bAsIcAlLy tHe sAmE" isn't going to work. The "parallels" you are drawing between the two jobs is a far reach, and you are leaving out key damaging abilities on Warrior to suit your point. (Inner Chaos, Primal Rend, Onslaught Charges)

Warrior might have the simplest damage rotation of the Tanks, but it still has an actual rotation. Warrior and White Mage are not the same in the slightest.

[Azuri]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

Renathras, mind answering me a question. Here is a one-minute long view of WHM and WAR rotation in p1s. Are the following two the same image?





And before you start talking about all super elite players who know every mechanic and how the game isn't supposed to be balanced around them... This is from your own run.

[Rilifane]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

If you think of Storm's Eye as their 30 sec DoT/Dia, Inner Release as their Presence of Mind, Orogeny/thesingletargetoneIforgetthenameof as their Assize, Overpower as their Holy, Fell Cleave/Decimate as their Afflatus Misery, and Storm's Path as their Glare, it's ALMOST the same thing as you're saying above and parallels WHM. It only has a 1-2 before Storm's Eye/Path, and a 1-2 DPS rotation, but also has no GCD heals (and all actual tanking abilities aren't GCDs), and WAR/WHM have about the same number of total Hotbar slots/buttons.

If you removed their 1-2 in their single target combo, their 1 or 2 in their AOE combo, and combined Decimate/Fell Cleave and Orogeny/X into one button instead of two, it's basically WHM in tanking form. Complete with the party healing.

...and honestly? I'd have no problem with that, I like WAR and WHM as they are right now. Though I think it'd be nice if we had more variation in healers. Like AST is kind of like GNB with the APM, but there's not really a healing equivalent to, say, PLD and DRK.

Since they're basically there surely you wouldn't mind if we get the WAR rotation on WHM? No?
Great, because I'd take WAR over what WHM (or any healer) has any day.

[Renathras]

Well, the echo chamber brigade is out in force. Very well then...

WAR basic filler rotations...

Your argument can essentially be boiled down to "if Glare casts generated Lilies, WAR and WHM would be the same...so they're totally different and not at all comparable!"

I suppose they could just take the MP and healing from Tetra and make Glare casts cut off 5 sec from the CD and Dia 2 seconds, or something like that, and achieve the same general result. I suppose you could remove Cure 1, 2, an 3 and replace them with Holy 1 -> Holy 3 (AOE combo) and Stone 1 -> Stone 2 -> Glare/Dia for their single target rotation, turn Medica 1 into a single target version of Assize and Medica 2 into the AOE variant to cover for the WAR combos and spenders...

It's not an exact copy, because no two Jobs function identically, especially across roles.

But that's not the contention. The point is, they kind of ARE kind of already there. They aren't EXACTLY there, because they aren't the same role, but the variance is due to one being a Tank and one being a Healer. WHM's GCD cast heals (non Lilies/Regen) take up 5 bar slots, making it equivalent to WAR's other parts of their combo and AOE/single target versions of Fell/Decimate and Upheaval/Orogeny.

The ONE thing that I DO like that WAR does and wish WHM had a version of is Infuriate's interaction with Fell Cleave/Decimate. It would be neat if WHM had something like "High Glarega/High Holyga" when you popped Presence of Mind, but that's really the only super significant difference here. Maybe toss Consolation for some ability that generates a free Lily...but that would just be Rhizomata. But that would be the WHM version of Infuriate, I suppose...

EDIT:

Since they're basically there surely you wouldn't mind if we get the WAR rotation on WHM? No?
Great, because I'd take WAR over what WHM (or any healer) has any day.

If we replaced Heavy Swing with Cure 1, Maim with Cure 2, Infuriate with Consolation, Overpower with Medica 1 (Mythril Cyclone can be Holy), Tomahawk with Medica 2, and likewise compare WHM's oGCD kit across the board to replace WAR oGCDs with WHM oGCDs, then yes.

I'd LOVE a WAR that got rid of Heavy Swing and Maim and just used Storm's Eye and Storm's Path (once per 30 seconds). The main difference would be something like if Glare cut down Assize's CD OR generated petals for Lilies such that every 5 casts or something you got an extra Lily's worth of Blood Lily. It'd be a little weird to work out, but yeah, we could do that.

And then as I said above, of PoM gave us a boosted Glare/Holy to really cut loose with like WAR does with Fell Cleave? Yeah, I'd be fine with that. Or alternatively, if we convert Consolation into something like Rhizo/Infuriate (generates a charge of Lily or Asize) and boosts its effect. Either is fine.

Renathras, mind answering me a question. Here is a one-minute long view of WHM and WAR rotation in p1s. Are the following two the same image?

...

And before you start talking about all super elite players who know every mechanic and how the game isn't supposed to be balanced around them... This is from your own run.

Heh, this is a new one - someone throwing someone else's uploads of a parse of me at me to show me I'm doing things right instead of try to call into question my assessment as being based in ignorance or lack of skill...supposedly. After all, if you were doing the latter, that would probably be bannable/reportable. So surely that's not the intent. Yay! \o/

"Unfortunately it's overshadowed by all this UNYIELDING RAGE!!!"

Ahem, reference aside:

WAR is a tank, WHM is a healer. WHM doesn't need to pop oGCDs all that often and its oGCDs are based on healing not dealing damage. In theory, I could use a lot more CDs (and if that's the fight I think it is, I did later in the fight, as well as the run before it which I suspect wasn't uploaded because it was a wipe due to someone mucking up Fourfold...). It can be quite a bit busy, but this depends on the party. For example, that wasn't during Intemperance, as I used Rapture and Asylum during it, and also Tetra. It wasn't during Fourfold where I also employed Lilybell. It doesn't include ANY of the tank busters, where I would use things like Benison or Temperance.

But setting that aside and giving you the good faith benefit of the doubt that you weren't cherry picking, yes, WHM's damage kit is thinner than WAR's because WHM's HEALING KIT takes up those extra buttons. That's kind of what I was getting at above "converting" WAR abilities into WHM GCDs to show they have a rough parity.

In WAR's case, it hits those buttons largely as "maintenance" whereas in WHM's, it reserves them for emergency uses.

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THE POINT:

The kits OVERAL have a similar level of parity and complexity. WHM's complexity (and I'm not saying it's a LOT of complexity, mind you) comes from its healing kit. Consolation before Medica/Medica 2/Cure 3/Rapture can be thought of as Infuriate into Chaotic Cyclone/Inner Chaos. It works the same way, buffing an existing ability it is used before, just it doesn't give M/M2/C3/AR a new and different animation.

But yes, looking at them holistically, WHM and WAR have similar levels of complexity. WAR's just shows up more because its complexity is in its base damage rotation and WHM's is in its healing kit.

...which is kind of the point I was originally making.

CONVERSELY:

WAR could lose about 3 abilities and WHM could have one converted into making its Glare/Holy into boosted versions and you'd end up with them being damn near identical.

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FINAL NOTE/EDIT:

WHM and WAR are the easy Jobs in their respective roles.

The main issue, imo, is that Tanks have three other varieties while healers laregely do not. AST's burst APM is similar to GNBs, but it's more clunk while GNB is tight and smooth. SCH's flexibility is somewhat like PLDs, but you don't use a lot of it. DRK is...…...DRK. I don't even know what's going on there.

If healers had four variations like tanks do, I'd be perfectly fine with that. WAR and WHM as they are today would be fine in such a world and would be the two I'd gravitate to playing.

.

EDIT DAILY LIMIT:

Stupidly restrictive...but whatever, just posting this here so I don't forget, though I probably won't continue this conversation because I feel it's unproductive - that is, people are arguing different forms of complexity (I'm arguing overall complexity vs people arguing DPS complexity on a Job that isn't designed around DPS...)

Anyway, posting and then moving on:

Oh wait... that content doesn't exist outside of Ultimate. That's probably why Yoshi P told healers to play Ultimate rather than address the problem.

I'm sorry, but you can't say there is equivalent complexity in a healing kit when nearly all content doesn't call for it.

I'm confused, are you saying there isn't complexity (a lie) or that it isn't needed (something I agree with)?

Because if you're saying it isn't NEEDED, then I CAN, in fact, say that there is equivalent complexity in the healing kit.

If you're saying they aren't comparably complex, you'd be lying.

My argument is that they're comparably complex, NOT that you need nor use that complexity. That's a different argument entirely. Though I did note that their DPS kits are not extremely diverse, which is why I even pointed out their similarities.

WHM is a healer, so its complexity is focused on its healing.

WAR is a tank in a game where agro USED to be based on damage dealing, and so carries vestigial complexity from its damage kit.

IN SO MUCH AS we can compare two DIFFERENT ROLES, WHM and WAR are of a similar level of complexity. (We could also throw SMN in here as well as "of a similar complexity" to WHM and WAR overall.)

That was all my argument was.

...that and the OP asked if I'd be content with a tank that had a damage rotation like WHM's, to which my answer was "Yeah, sure. I might like that, actually."

.

You can argue other things, but my points have been consistent AND ACCURATE. You just are interpreting my points as something they are not and then attacking the straw man you've thus invented.

[IllyaPrisma]

Consolation before Medica/Medica 2/Cure 3/Rapture can be thought of as Infuriate into Chaotic Cyclone/Inner Chaos. It works the same way, buffing an existing ability it is used before, just it doesn't give M/M2/C3/AR a new and different animation.

But yes, looking at them holistically, WHM and WAR have similar levels of complexity. WAR's just shows up more because its complexity is in its base damage rotation and WHM's is in its healing kit.

...
...
I'm confused, are you saying there isn't complexity (a lie) or that it isn't needed (something I agree with)?

...

That was all my argument was.

...that and the OP asked if I'd be content with a tank that had a damage rotation like WHM's, to which my answer was "Yeah, sure. I might like that, actually."

I'm not going to break apart your entire response, but in the above statement, you are saying that plenary indulgence into an AoE heal is equivalent to Infuriate into Inner Chaos... where one is healing and the other is damage (damage being the very thing healers want)

This is the very thing we are attempting to combat. You say that the complexity for WHM lies in it's healing kit. Okay? Now I just need content where I feel challenged and engaged with all of those "complexities" ( - superfluous and bloated healing kit)

Oh wait... that content doesn't exist outside of Ultimate. That's probably why Yoshi P told healers to play Ultimate rather than address the problem.

I'm sorry, but you can't say there is equivalent complexity in a healing kit when nearly all content doesn't call for it.

Addition:
In response to your edit, your argument is pointless and off topic. You have drawn a meaningless comparison between two jobs for no apparent reason.

You insist WAR and WHM are comparably complex, yet one has healing complexity that is almost always untapped and unneeded. And no, I personally do not believe they are equivalent in complexity.

The only response that has been relevant to the discussion is "Yeah, sure I might like that, actually" to Tanks having 1 DoT/1 Spam GCD/1 AoE GCD.

[Azuri]

The kits OVERAL have a similar level of parity and complexity. WHM's complexity (and I'm not saying it's a LOT of complexity, mind you) comes from its healing kit. Consolation before Medica/Medica 2/Cure 3/Rapture can be thought of as Infuriate into Chaotic Cyclone/Inner Chaos. It works the same way, buffing an existing ability it is used before, just it doesn't give M/M2/C3/AR a new and different animation.

But yes, looking at them holistically, WHM and WAR have similar levels of complexity. WAR's just shows up more because its complexity is in its base damage rotation and WHM's is in its healing kit.

Ah but wherein lies the problem. You haven't used a single Medica 2. A single Cure 3. You've never used Plenary. 4 Asylums, 3 Tetragammatons, 2 Benisons. In a 7-minute fight. Most of your abilities have been off cooldown for longer than they were on cooldown.

We can both agree that you are the exemplary casual healer whos rights to one "simple" job you defend so hard all the time (man that GCD uptime...). And even you barely used any of those "equally complex" healing abilities. Imagine how a more "dedicated" healer with a more "dedicated" group would feel in your place?

This is the difference between WAR and WHM. They might have the same theoretical compexity (which you weirdly measure in amount of buttons but sure, I can indulge you). Their practical complexity is nowhere close. One kit is created with understanding that your "tanking" responsibility has a massive amount of downtime and the downtime kit reflects it. The other has all the "healing" tools and nothing to use them on. While the downtime activity consists of a single dot and single filler button. Even you have used 124 Glares. Out of 194 total casts. Including oGCDs.

The "simple" healer you defend so much is simply unacceptable and shouldn't exist. It's poorly designed. Even for casual players.

[Rilifane]

You are argueing a purely theoretical difficulty based on the number of buttons.
You will excuse me if I prefer to judge classes according to reality - not some theoretical complexity that may or may not exist in a parallel universe but it certainly doesn't exist here. And like it or not, in an extremely dps-focused game the complexity of a class has to come at least partly from the dps side of the kit. If it didn't we could just give all tanks one dot, one attack and the rest of their buttons dedicated to mitigation because they're tanks, dps is not their focus.
I'm sure that would go over well.

The reality is: a WHM almost never uses Cure I, II, III, Regen or Medica in any max level content nor the majority of leveling content once past a certain level. Even Medica II is relatively rare among healers on the safety heal-side. Most average at 10 casts per fight which is very little over a fight that goes on for 7-9min.
So that means 6 of those buttons that add to the complexity of the healing kit (and we'll ignore for a moment that they're all straightforward "push button, hp bar goes brrr" heals) are already barely, if ever, getting used.

But yes, I suppose that if you replace 6 buttons we almost never or never use with equivalents of skills that WAR frequently uses at all levels (once unlocked) and in all content then they're very similar.
Not exactly a argument to support your assessment that WAR and WHM are similar.

The biggest difference between WAR or rather tanks in general and all healers is that for tanks it got acknowledged that they will have plenty of downtime during their tank duty. They didn't extend the same curtesy to healers even though they face the exact same problem and even the most casual healer has to deal with an obscene amount of downtime.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Did you guys see people already got a 100% parse party with 5 dps and 1 healer in DSU? Every player in the party got a 100% parse including the healer….

[QooEr]

Did you guys see people already got a 100% parse party with 5 dps and 1 healer in DSU? Every player in the party got a 100% parse including the healer….

everybody got 100 because its the only nonstandard parse uploaded. its percentile, not percent.

[Renathras]

Did you guys see people already got a 100% parse party with 5 dps and 1 healer in DSU? Every player in the party got a 100% parse including the healer….

That's pretty insane and indicative of an exceptional team pushing the limits of what's possible.

They also said they were at it for 10 days (?!) and had to get the RNG of the mechanics to line up JUST right for it to even be possible. Everyone, of course, ignores all that and now believes DSU can be solo healed by anyone and everyone. Because...of course they do.

Ah but wherein lies the problem...

I mean, I absolutely COULD HAVE used those buttons. I've been trying to push myself to NOT use them. A Medica 2 instead of a Solace might not have gone amiss in part of the run, but I used what I had and tried to have faith in my co-healer to take care of the rest. It more or less worked.

There's no multi-hit stack mechanic for Plenery/Cure 3, and I used Lilybell for Fourfold (and had the Red 3, so couldn't be centered for AOE healing anyway). I thought I did fat finger Plenery somewhere. Heh. And 2 Benisons? Did I really? That kinda makes me happy since I tend to still have the old school mentality of "clutch heals are for emergencies only" that I've been trying to break myself out of.

Also, I don't tend to analyze runs much, so not sure if you're making a dig at me with "that GCD uptime..." or not. Please DO elaborate?

Most people had enough gear and knew the fight well enough. I still frequently used my GCD Lily heals and my oGCD abilities because I'm genuinely trying to get better and use more of my kit. This is, however, the first time in my FFXIV experience I've had someone...attack?...me for doing so. So I guess there's a first time for everything.

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"simply unacceptable"?

I was able to clear the content.

"It's poorly designed"?

Even your list shows I used quite a few of my various healing abilities. The Job is designed to reward good play while having strong backup spamable GCD heals (Medica, Cure 3) in case of emergencies. This fight didn't have too many emergencies.

Besides, you're not arguing WHM is poorly designed here. You're arguing P1S is poorly designed. At least get that right, eh?

EDIT:

You are argueing a purely theoretical difficulty...

No, I'm looking at kits, interactions, and how they work in a mechanical sense.

I've already submitted for the sake of argument that CONTENT is too easy. I've said for months now we have too many oGCDs, they're too powerful, and fights are too scripted. I got downvoted to the 13th on Reddit for daring to suggest we need more complex healing requirements/more intense damage in high level end-game content. How DARE I suggest such a thing.

...and have been berated for it here, too.

To be attacked for saying healing is too easy by people saying healing is too easy is the height of absurdity. Noting the fact that the healing kits are complex is also not a lie. As I said in the very post I believe you are responding to:

My argument is that they're comparably complex, NOT that you need nor use that complexity. That's a different argument entirely.

WHM and WAR are comparably complex.

You don't need to USE WHM's complexity in currently designed content.

That doesn't mean the Job (since all healers are this way) is badly designed. It means the content is not being well designed.

And let's face it, if P1S was cleared with ALL TANKS - that means 8 TANKS without a single DPS Job were able to clear the DPS CHECK enrage... - it means that the proper take here is that P1S (and the other end-game content) may be undertuned. If you can clear DPS check enrages without a single DPS in the party, that says something, doesn't it? CERTAINLY if being able to clear without a healer says something, being able to clear without a damage dealer must say something too, right?