Contradictions, Double Standards, Counterintuitive Design

[Renathras]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

If you think of Storm's Eye as their 30 sec DoT/Dia, Inner Release as their Presence of Mind, Orogeny/thesingletargetoneIforgetthenameof as their Assize, Overpower as their Holy, Fell Cleave/Decimate as their Afflatus Misery, and Storm's Path as their Glare, it's ALMOST the same thing as you're saying above and parallels WHM. It only has a 1-2 before Storm's Eye/Path, and a 1-2 DPS rotation, but also has no GCD heals (and all actual tanking abilities aren't GCDs), and WAR/WHM have about the same number of total Hotbar slots/buttons.

If you removed their 1-2 in their single target combo, their 1 or 2 in their AOE combo, and combined Decimate/Fell Cleave and Orogeny/X into one button instead of two, it's basically WHM in tanking form. Complete with the party healing.

...and honestly? I'd have no problem with that, I like WAR and WHM as they are right now. Though I think it'd be nice if we had more variation in healers. Like AST is kind of like GNB with the APM, but there's not really a healing equivalent to, say, PLD and DRK.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

If you think of Storm's Eye as their 30 sec DoT/Dia, Inner Release as their Presence of Mind, Orogeny/thesingletargetoneIforgetthenameof as their Assize, Overpower as their Holy, Fell Cleave/Decimate as their Afflatus Misery, and Storm's Path as their Glare, it's ALMOST the same thing as you're saying above and parallels WHM. It only has a 1-2 before Storm's Eye/Path, and a 1-2 DPS rotation, but also has no GCD heals (and all actual tanking abilities aren't GCDs), and WAR/WHM have about the same number of total Hotbar slots/buttons.

If you removed their 1-2 in their single target combo, their 1 or 2 in their AOE combo, and combined Decimate/Fell Cleave and Orogeny/X into one button instead of two, it's basically WHM in tanking form. Complete with the party healing.

...and honestly? I'd have no problem with that, I like WAR and WHM as they are right now. Though I think it'd be nice if we had more variation in healers. Like AST is kind of like GNB with the APM, but there's not really a healing equivalent to, say, PLD and DRK.

WAR basic filler rotations generates beast gauge so long you press them; no pressing them, no Fell Cleaves/Decimates for you. Storm's Path generate more resource but does not refresh the buff. Storm's Eye generates less resource but refreshes the buff. Compare to WHM? WHM's lily are passively generated; you can smack your target with your cane and it'll refill on its own without you doing anything. Solace/Raptures does build up into Misery but you only get at max 4 presses that is not Glares in a minute if we turn to blind eyes toward the meaningless heals. Outside that, we spam Stone/Glare/Holy & keeping Dia uptime which does not build up into anything, at all.

Honestly, those already sets apart their depth despite how often WAR's simplicity is being meme'd upon amongst its own role. To that, I disagree that they're "already kind of there". They definitely have more going on.

[Renathras]

Well, the echo chamber brigade is out in force. Very well then...

WAR basic filler rotations...

Your argument can essentially be boiled down to "if Glare casts generated Lilies, WAR and WHM would be the same...so they're totally different and not at all comparable!"

I suppose they could just take the MP and healing from Tetra and make Glare casts cut off 5 sec from the CD and Dia 2 seconds, or something like that, and achieve the same general result. I suppose you could remove Cure 1, 2, an 3 and replace them with Holy 1 -> Holy 3 (AOE combo) and Stone 1 -> Stone 2 -> Glare/Dia for their single target rotation, turn Medica 1 into a single target version of Assize and Medica 2 into the AOE variant to cover for the WAR combos and spenders...

It's not an exact copy, because no two Jobs function identically, especially across roles.

But that's not the contention. The point is, they kind of ARE kind of already there. They aren't EXACTLY there, because they aren't the same role, but the variance is due to one being a Tank and one being a Healer. WHM's GCD cast heals (non Lilies/Regen) take up 5 bar slots, making it equivalent to WAR's other parts of their combo and AOE/single target versions of Fell/Decimate and Upheaval/Orogeny.

The ONE thing that I DO like that WAR does and wish WHM had a version of is Infuriate's interaction with Fell Cleave/Decimate. It would be neat if WHM had something like "High Glarega/High Holyga" when you popped Presence of Mind, but that's really the only super significant difference here. Maybe toss Consolation for some ability that generates a free Lily...but that would just be Rhizomata. But that would be the WHM version of Infuriate, I suppose...

EDIT:

Since they're basically there surely you wouldn't mind if we get the WAR rotation on WHM? No?
Great, because I'd take WAR over what WHM (or any healer) has any day.

If we replaced Heavy Swing with Cure 1, Maim with Cure 2, Infuriate with Consolation, Overpower with Medica 1 (Mythril Cyclone can be Holy), Tomahawk with Medica 2, and likewise compare WHM's oGCD kit across the board to replace WAR oGCDs with WHM oGCDs, then yes.

I'd LOVE a WAR that got rid of Heavy Swing and Maim and just used Storm's Eye and Storm's Path (once per 30 seconds). The main difference would be something like if Glare cut down Assize's CD OR generated petals for Lilies such that every 5 casts or something you got an extra Lily's worth of Blood Lily. It'd be a little weird to work out, but yeah, we could do that.

And then as I said above, of PoM gave us a boosted Glare/Holy to really cut loose with like WAR does with Fell Cleave? Yeah, I'd be fine with that. Or alternatively, if we convert Consolation into something like Rhizo/Infuriate (generates a charge of Lily or Asize) and boosts its effect. Either is fine.

Renathras, mind answering me a question. Here is a one-minute long view of WHM and WAR rotation in p1s. Are the following two the same image?

...

And before you start talking about all super elite players who know every mechanic and how the game isn't supposed to be balanced around them... This is from your own run.

Heh, this is a new one - someone throwing someone else's uploads of a parse of me at me to show me I'm doing things right instead of try to call into question my assessment as being based in ignorance or lack of skill...supposedly. After all, if you were doing the latter, that would probably be bannable/reportable. So surely that's not the intent. Yay! \o/

"Unfortunately it's overshadowed by all this UNYIELDING RAGE!!!"

Ahem, reference aside:

WAR is a tank, WHM is a healer. WHM doesn't need to pop oGCDs all that often and its oGCDs are based on healing not dealing damage. In theory, I could use a lot more CDs (and if that's the fight I think it is, I did later in the fight, as well as the run before it which I suspect wasn't uploaded because it was a wipe due to someone mucking up Fourfold...). It can be quite a bit busy, but this depends on the party. For example, that wasn't during Intemperance, as I used Rapture and Asylum during it, and also Tetra. It wasn't during Fourfold where I also employed Lilybell. It doesn't include ANY of the tank busters, where I would use things like Benison or Temperance.

But setting that aside and giving you the good faith benefit of the doubt that you weren't cherry picking, yes, WHM's damage kit is thinner than WAR's because WHM's HEALING KIT takes up those extra buttons. That's kind of what I was getting at above "converting" WAR abilities into WHM GCDs to show they have a rough parity.

In WAR's case, it hits those buttons largely as "maintenance" whereas in WHM's, it reserves them for emergency uses.

.

THE POINT:

The kits OVERAL have a similar level of parity and complexity. WHM's complexity (and I'm not saying it's a LOT of complexity, mind you) comes from its healing kit. Consolation before Medica/Medica 2/Cure 3/Rapture can be thought of as Infuriate into Chaotic Cyclone/Inner Chaos. It works the same way, buffing an existing ability it is used before, just it doesn't give M/M2/C3/AR a new and different animation.

But yes, looking at them holistically, WHM and WAR have similar levels of complexity. WAR's just shows up more because its complexity is in its base damage rotation and WHM's is in its healing kit.

...which is kind of the point I was originally making.

CONVERSELY:

WAR could lose about 3 abilities and WHM could have one converted into making its Glare/Holy into boosted versions and you'd end up with them being damn near identical.

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FINAL NOTE/EDIT:

WHM and WAR are the easy Jobs in their respective roles.

The main issue, imo, is that Tanks have three other varieties while healers laregely do not. AST's burst APM is similar to GNBs, but it's more clunk while GNB is tight and smooth. SCH's flexibility is somewhat like PLDs, but you don't use a lot of it. DRK is...…...DRK. I don't even know what's going on there.

If healers had four variations like tanks do, I'd be perfectly fine with that. WAR and WHM as they are today would be fine in such a world and would be the two I'd gravitate to playing.

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EDIT DAILY LIMIT:

Stupidly restrictive...but whatever, just posting this here so I don't forget, though I probably won't continue this conversation because I feel it's unproductive - that is, people are arguing different forms of complexity (I'm arguing overall complexity vs people arguing DPS complexity on a Job that isn't designed around DPS...)

Anyway, posting and then moving on:

Oh wait... that content doesn't exist outside of Ultimate. That's probably why Yoshi P told healers to play Ultimate rather than address the problem.

I'm sorry, but you can't say there is equivalent complexity in a healing kit when nearly all content doesn't call for it.

I'm confused, are you saying there isn't complexity (a lie) or that it isn't needed (something I agree with)?

Because if you're saying it isn't NEEDED, then I CAN, in fact, say that there is equivalent complexity in the healing kit.

If you're saying they aren't comparably complex, you'd be lying.

My argument is that they're comparably complex, NOT that you need nor use that complexity. That's a different argument entirely. Though I did note that their DPS kits are not extremely diverse, which is why I even pointed out their similarities.

WHM is a healer, so its complexity is focused on its healing.

WAR is a tank in a game where agro USED to be based on damage dealing, and so carries vestigial complexity from its damage kit.

IN SO MUCH AS we can compare two DIFFERENT ROLES, WHM and WAR are of a similar level of complexity. (We could also throw SMN in here as well as "of a similar complexity" to WHM and WAR overall.)

That was all my argument was.

...that and the OP asked if I'd be content with a tank that had a damage rotation like WHM's, to which my answer was "Yeah, sure. I might like that, actually."

.

You can argue other things, but my points have been consistent AND ACCURATE. You just are interpreting my points as something they are not and then attacking the straw man you've thus invented.

[Azuri]

The kits OVERAL have a similar level of parity and complexity. WHM's complexity (and I'm not saying it's a LOT of complexity, mind you) comes from its healing kit. Consolation before Medica/Medica 2/Cure 3/Rapture can be thought of as Infuriate into Chaotic Cyclone/Inner Chaos. It works the same way, buffing an existing ability it is used before, just it doesn't give M/M2/C3/AR a new and different animation.

But yes, looking at them holistically, WHM and WAR have similar levels of complexity. WAR's just shows up more because its complexity is in its base damage rotation and WHM's is in its healing kit.

Ah but wherein lies the problem. You haven't used a single Medica 2. A single Cure 3. You've never used Plenary. 4 Asylums, 3 Tetragammatons, 2 Benisons. In a 7-minute fight. Most of your abilities have been off cooldown for longer than they were on cooldown.

We can both agree that you are the exemplary casual healer whos rights to one "simple" job you defend so hard all the time (man that GCD uptime...). And even you barely used any of those "equally complex" healing abilities. Imagine how a more "dedicated" healer with a more "dedicated" group would feel in your place?

This is the difference between WAR and WHM. They might have the same theoretical compexity (which you weirdly measure in amount of buttons but sure, I can indulge you). Their practical complexity is nowhere close. One kit is created with understanding that your "tanking" responsibility has a massive amount of downtime and the downtime kit reflects it. The other has all the "healing" tools and nothing to use them on. While the downtime activity consists of a single dot and single filler button. Even you have used 124 Glares. Out of 194 total casts. Including oGCDs.

The "simple" healer you defend so much is simply unacceptable and shouldn't exist. It's poorly designed. Even for casual players.

[IllyaPrisma]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

If you think of Storm's Eye as their 30 sec DoT/Dia, Inner Release as their Presence of Mind, Orogeny/thesingletargetoneIforgetthenameof as their Assize, Overpower as their Holy, Fell Cleave/Decimate as their Afflatus Misery, and Storm's Path as their Glare, it's ALMOST the same thing as you're saying above and parallels WHM. It only has a 1-2 before Storm's Eye/Path, and a 1-2 DPS rotation, but also has no GCD heals (and all actual tanking abilities aren't GCDs), and WAR/WHM have about the same number of total Hotbar slots/buttons.

If you removed their 1-2 in their single target combo, their 1 or 2 in their AOE combo, and combined Decimate/Fell Cleave and Orogeny/X into one button instead of two, it's basically WHM in tanking form. Complete with the party healing.

"wArRioR aNd wHiTeMagE aRe bAsIcAlLy tHe sAmE" isn't going to work. The "parallels" you are drawing between the two jobs is a far reach, and you are leaving out key damaging abilities on Warrior to suit your point. (Inner Chaos, Primal Rend, Onslaught Charges)

Warrior might have the simplest damage rotation of the Tanks, but it still has an actual rotation. Warrior and White Mage are not the same in the slightest.

[Azuri]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

Renathras, mind answering me a question. Here is a one-minute long view of WHM and WAR rotation in p1s. Are the following two the same image?





And before you start talking about all super elite players who know every mechanic and how the game isn't supposed to be balanced around them... This is from your own run.

[Rilifane]

I mean, WAR is already kind of there.

If you think of Storm's Eye as their 30 sec DoT/Dia, Inner Release as their Presence of Mind, Orogeny/thesingletargetoneIforgetthenameof as their Assize, Overpower as their Holy, Fell Cleave/Decimate as their Afflatus Misery, and Storm's Path as their Glare, it's ALMOST the same thing as you're saying above and parallels WHM. It only has a 1-2 before Storm's Eye/Path, and a 1-2 DPS rotation, but also has no GCD heals (and all actual tanking abilities aren't GCDs), and WAR/WHM have about the same number of total Hotbar slots/buttons.

If you removed their 1-2 in their single target combo, their 1 or 2 in their AOE combo, and combined Decimate/Fell Cleave and Orogeny/X into one button instead of two, it's basically WHM in tanking form. Complete with the party healing.

...and honestly? I'd have no problem with that, I like WAR and WHM as they are right now. Though I think it'd be nice if we had more variation in healers. Like AST is kind of like GNB with the APM, but there's not really a healing equivalent to, say, PLD and DRK.

Since they're basically there surely you wouldn't mind if we get the WAR rotation on WHM? No?
Great, because I'd take WAR over what WHM (or any healer) has any day.