What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Raoabolic]

G'raha has his flaws, we all know that, him having a bit more spotlight to get some more freshness and detail into him isn't bad, and the game isn't over yet so we most likely will have them.

What details? We already know he wants go on adventures with the WoL. The 5.x patches established that. What freshness and details are you talking about because from where i'm sitting that character has somehow regressed during EW. He had ONE moment during the panic where the writers remembered he was the Exarch and wrote him as such but outside of that he has not shown any character growth. People can call it whatever they want but at the end of the day the writers had an active choice on how to present said character and they chose, well, you know, lol.

[Midareyukki]

Agreed, it's not unique to him. The slice of life stuff is an issue for some of us. Again, not a pivotal issue, but it doesn't do much for my enjoyment of the MSQ, and it is at the point where I wish I could bench some Scions and pick who is going along. Plus I'd like more dialogue options in response to them... much as I would've liked the same with Venat. It's a difference to me of her actions necessitating it and a "nice to have" for the Scions. In the case of Y'shtola I did not like what they did with her in 6.1 at all - she's not my favourite character by a longshot, but it undermined her character for me.

With that said, this thread circles back more on Venat or Hermes than any other characters for its grievances - justified, given their role in the plot, but G'raha does not receive anything like what those two do and when he comes up, it is for different reasons altogether.

Regarding Magnai being characterised as 'creepy' within his own culture, would someone jog my memory as to what's being referenced here? The Steppes are not exactly the pinnacle of refined behaviour to begin with, and far worse goes on there than some advances he makes to women which he never forces himself upon. He is a tribal warlord at the end of the day and his demeanour and mentality fit with that to the degree the story allows it to. Y'shtola even remarked on his advances as better than most she's been on the receiving end of.

I'll say something that I'm not even certain of myself, but here goes: I think it's his insistence that someone is his Nhaama. Nhaama being a goddess rival and lover to Azim, the Sun God Magnai's tribe worships, really makes him look like he's weird. In a Judeo-Christian context, imagine you saying you're Joseph and are longing for your Mary. And going around asking people if they're your Mary. Even if you're not too religious, you would at least think the guy has a few screws loose.

As for Endwalker G'raha, Y'shtola...
I think Y'shtola's magical girl bit was just the writers performing a Japanese meme.
G'raha does at least one thing that the other Scions can't do without it looking weird, at least not so immediate. He provides the Warrior of Light with a friend they can just chill with. Which I think explains the SoL bits?

We could have a casual meeting with Y'shtola, Thancred or Urianger with food at the Seventh Heaven but we know it'd be mature and with either a lot of talking about complex matters or about planning for the future like your parents.
We could have it with Alphinaud, but it'd be formal. With Alisaie, it'd be closer to what we have with G'raha, but she's still got some formality and sense of duty to her, it wouldn't really happen.
With G'raha you at least have someone who would munch on a burger so carefreely while chatting about literally anything.
Such a scene with Estinien would just be awkward side glances.

What details? We already know he wants go on adventures with the WoL. The 5.x patches established that. What freshness and details are you talking about because from where i'm sitting that character has somehow regressed during EW. He had ONE moment during the panic where the writers remembered he was the Exarch and wrote him as such but outside of that he has not shown any character growth. People can call it whatever they want but at the end of the day the writers had an active choice on how to present said character and they chose, well, you know, lol.

No, I'm talking about said future adventures as established in 5.X patches. Those are the ones I'm expecting to give him some tribulation to get some further detail.

I'd otherwise say, yes, his character growth happened off-screen for the most part, and then we just fine tune it over the course of Shadowbringers-proper. Endwalker just established where he was at that point and his outlook, like all the other Scions. Not much growth or development for almost any of them. Just "Here is where we stand".

[CrownySuccubus]

Regarding Magnai being characterised as 'creepy' within his own culture, would someone jog my memory as to what's being referenced here? Genuine question as I've forgotten the ins and outs of that. That being said, the Steppes are not exactly the pinnacle of refined behaviour to begin with, and far worse goes on there than some advances he makes to women which he never forces himself upon. He is a tribal warlord at the end of the day and his demeanour and mentality fit with that to the degree the story allows it to. Y'shtola even remarked on his advances as better than most she's been on the receiving end of.

Magnai's behavior basically comes across as the equivalent of cat-calling. While he isn't portrayed as particularly predatory, the "joke" is that his advances are almost always completely out of nowhere or out of context, and the woman he is hitting on has zero interest in that at the moment. Not unlike, say, a waitress getting hit on while she's trying to do her job or a woman getting whistled at while walking down the street. Not all that aggressive, compared to some of the worst behavior, but the general reaction to it is "WTF?" at worst and "Uhhh...thanks but no thanks" at best.

I don't remember exactly the line, but I do recall optional dialogue with either Cirina or Sadu where they say that female Xaela much prefer spending time with Sadu and Cirina than Magnai because he makes them uncomfortable.

And....how is this any different than how many people view Graha?

("than how a handful of people view Graha")

Anyway:

MAGNAI: "I am the sun! See how great I am!? Oh, and will you become my Nhaama?!"

G'RAHA: "Hey, if it's not too much trouble...and if it is, I'll completely understand...but would you mind taking me on your next adventure?"

Yep. Completely the same.

(INCIDENTALLY, I'm out of daily posts....so see you guys manana.)

EDIT: Nevermind. Guess we're doing this now.

Of course, there's the other side to Magnai which I, and many other men, can somewhat empathize with. Men are expected in society at large to make advances on women. Most of us are bad at it, because it's a pretty difficult thing to do. Most women will never know what it's like to make advances on someone, because they aren't expected to, and largely do not have too. Yet, in spite of this, they criticize every man's approach that does not make them feel at ease, often drawing on lived experience to designate an approach as cringe, unwanted, unwarranted, and whatever other words you wanna add that are synonymous with, "Don't, you shouldn't have, terrible."

I don't really have the time or desire to unpack ALL of this, but the primary difference between male and female flirtation comes down to sense of danger. Most men (especially tough Alpha Male guys) don't feel at all physically threatened by a woman that flirts with them, and even if they did, wouldn't want to admit it. Women, on the other hand, are not only taught to fear men (by both women AND men themselves), but it's also common for guys to see even the slightest positive reaction as an invitation to flirt more. They aren't specifically to blame for this -- it is legitimately hard to pick up signals -- but the risk of getting these signals wrong is not worth the risk of a guy believing he has a shot when that wasn't your intention, and then feel like you were "leading him on" when you're forced to say you aren't interested. So, for these complicated reasons (amongst other ones that, as I said, I'm not going unpack today), women just avoid directly asking someone out.

In regards to Magnai, he has another problem. Magnai has a bit of an ego problem, and the women of the Steppe don't seem to be into that. Magnai typically revels in flaunting his status and physical might to a religious extreme, and thus any woman who is either A) not privy to the same faith or B) uncomfortable with "preening" don't like it. Or, in the case of Cirina and Y'shtola, both. Magnai's joke is that he's only Foreveralone because he makes terrible first impressions, and he just doesn't GET that.

And how is this any different from how Graha acts with us? Its how many people myself included perceive him.

The short answer is that G'raha is extremely humble about how he approaches and asks you and, likewise, doesn't actually expect you to say "yes". While the game's "sin" is not actually giving the player the option to say no, G'raha is very softspoken. And all of this is just ask to tagalong on an adventure. Magnai, meanwhile, usually preambles his approaches with monlogues about destiny and the sun, already making the situation awkward before he basically proposes marriage.

There's ALSO the fact that G'raha is already the WOL's friend. (Okay, sure, maybe not YOUR WOL...but again, you have no choice with pretty much anybody, let alone G'raha.) G'raha isn't some complete stranger walking up and asking if you're their soulmate....which is what Magnai does. As I said above, Magnai's biggest problem (with the joke being that he doesn't get it) is terrible first impressions.

I dont think its fair to just downplay it as a "handful of people."

Whatever. I'm no longer in debating the semantical doublespeak between "Fan favorite character" and an opposing minority.

I also dont see how what Magnai does is catcalling...he isnt approaching every single woman on the steppes to be his nhamma

And another joke is actually that he might have done just that. We're flat out told that he's made a number of women on the Steppe uncomfortable, and the first thing he asks about whenever he talks to you about some new land is whether there's women there. The joke implies that he actually DOES hit on anywhere between 50 - 75% of the women he comes across. Which is another reason he leaves a bad impression.

and those he does approach, he takes no for an answer. Unlike Graha where we dont have that option, it feels gross.

Okay.

I guess we'll keep waiting for the option to dismiss party members.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Magnai's behavior basically comes across as the equivalent of cat-calling. While he isn't portrayed as particularly predatory, the "joke" is that his advances are almost always completely out of nowhere or out of context, and the woman he is hitting on has zero interest in that at the moment. Not unlike, say, a waitress getting hit on while she's trying to do her job or a woman getting whistled at while walking down the street. Not all that aggressive, compared to some of the worst behavior, but the general reaction to it is "WTF?" at worst and "Uhhh...thanks but no thanks" at best.

I don't remember exactly the line, but I do recall optional dialogue with either Cirina or Sadu where they say that female Xaela much prefer spending time with Sadu and Cirina than Magnai because he makes them uncomfortable.



("than how a handful of people view Graha")

Anyway:

MAGNAI: "I am the sun! See how great I am!? Oh, and will you become my Nhaama?!"

G'RAHA: "Hey, if it's not too much trouble...and if it is, I'll completely understand...but would you mind taking me on your next adventure?"

Yep. Completely the same.

(INCIDENTALLY, I'm out of daily posts....so see you guys manana.)

And how is this any different from how Graha acts with us? Its how many people myself included perceive him. I dont think its fair to just downplay it as a "handful of people." Theres many people ive met that feel the same way, they just feel too nervous to post about it because of how people lash out at anyone who critiques him...ironically the same way people complain about how people lash out at them for critiquing Endwalkers story. I also dont see how what Magnai does is catcalling...he isnt approaching every single woman on the steppes to be his nhamma and those he does approach, he takes no for an answer. Unlike Graha where we dont have that option, it feels gross.

This an entirely biased interpretation. It is not ever him talking like that...for really either of them. For yshtola he was actually even complimenting her strength and not himself.As for Graha when has he ever mentioned it like that. His fawning is always entirely out of nowhere.

[Lucida3b]

I mean i think far lower of magnai for one reason, anyone else remember when he threatened or said to flay someone?

[Lauront]

I don't remember exactly the line, but I do recall optional dialogue with either Cirina or Sadu where they say that female Xaela much prefer spending time with Sadu and Cirina than Magnai because he makes them uncomfortable.

I'll say something that I'm not even certain of myself, but here goes: I think it's his insistence that someone is his Nhaama. Nhaama being a goddess rival and lover to Azim, the Sun God Magnai's tribe worships, really makes him look like he's weird. In a Judeo-Christian context, imagine you saying you're Joseph and are longing for your Mary. And going around asking people if they're your Mary. Even if you're not too religious, you would at least think the guy has a few screws loose.

I can see that, as he does come across as being a hopeless romantic with some delusions of grandeur, though I saw Sadu in a similar light given her forceful, impulsive demeanour; granted, less focused on romantic pursuits.

As for Endwalker G'raha, Y'shtola...
I think Y'shtola's magical girl bit was just the writers performing a Japanese meme.

Yoshi seemed to be taken a bit aback by it as well, so I'm hoping it will be scaled back a bit.

[Vyrerus]

As far as G'raha Tia and his fawning go, I'm not too keen on it. However, when we put it in its full context, then it makes quite a lot of sense. In the 8UC timeline he was woken up by Cid and Nero, and then went on to work with and live with their descendants for something close to 200 years. The entire driving motivation for their entire lives, entire generations of lives, was to complete the Time Traveling Tower, and cause there to at least be one timeline where the WoL lives. Every single person in that timeline idolized the WoL like G'raha does. Imagine living for 200 years in a small society that essentially worships someone or something. Then imagine taking someone from that society and letting them be within arm's length of the thing that not only they themselves idolize, but every single person they've known for multiple lifetimes also idolizes.

Not saying you have to like it, but it does make sense. So when you see G'raha's fawning over your character, please at least realize that it represents the fawning of an entire society from an alternate timeline as well as all of the lives and deaths that went into making such fawning possible.

With regards to Magnai, his romantic advances are a cheap comedy device that the writers are completely comfortable exploiting. Not just FFXIV writers, but writers on average across all media. Men often bear the brunt of deprecating jokes, violence, and all manner of things that demean people. Society's never not been comfortable with doing that. In the context of our lives outside the game, it's pretty easy to laugh at Magnai, especially if you're a woman who's had similar advances levied at you in real life.

Of course, there's the other side to Magnai which I, and many other men, can somewhat empathize with. Men are expected in society at large to make advances on women. Most of us are bad at it, because it's a pretty difficult thing to do. Most women will never know what it's like to make advances on someone, because they aren't expected to, and largely do not have too. Yet, in spite of this, they criticize every man's approach that does not make them feel at ease, often drawing on lived experience to designate an approach as cringe, unwanted, unwarranted, and whatever other words you wanna add that are synonymous with, "Don't, you shouldn't have, terrible."

A pretty easy judgment to make, when you're getting propositioned often enough that it's bothersome. Put yourself in a guy's shoes though. If you want a romantic partner, you have to pursue one, unless you've subscribed to magical thinking that someone is just going to materialize, defy all social norms, and prove to be an exception (Which does happen for some people, damn their good fortune!). Could Magnai's approach be better? Of course. But you try changing the mind of a cocky warlord.

Tl;DR - Magnai and G'raha Tia aren't really comparable. G'raha Tia is a Gary Stu-like figure guilty of hero worship, whereas Magnai is essentially the lived experience of men

[Lauront]

Agree on the Magnai stuff. That's the way he came across to me as well. Aside from the chosen of Azim angle, but that completely fits given his position.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Thank you for this, sums up most of my thoughts quite well

[aveyond-dreams]

So now that Final Fantasy VII Remake Part 2 has been announced for next winter, it seems like its release will compete with 7.0 for my attention (depending on what Yoship's definition of winter turns out to be). I suppose now the question is whether I'm more willing to put up with Nomura-style writing or the current cringeworthy writing direction of FFXIV, unless something changes in the coming patches.

Catboy Doctor Who eating burgers in the void or chasing after Sephiroth with the FFVII cast. At least one of these will prove to be a story with some substance...