Just remove healers.

[Neoyoshi]

Ahh, i see you are taking the Ron Swanson approach to problem-solving. xD

[Renathras]

For the first: I disagree. Pressing 1-2-3 (no branching path) is not engaging or challenging. It's a fat-finger trap, not a skill check. I DO agree, however, that our rotation is supposed to be GCD healing, and we are denied it by current encounter design.

Balance is a useless argument when the fun and enagement is not there, first make all the jobs more diverse and fun and then balance them like they did with the dps (disregard difficulty, basically a job should be appealing for what it brings and how fun it is) but in any way shape or form 1 nuke 1 dot should be the peak of the gameplay of a mmo healer.

This is my point, though - they can't "balance" it because "doing more damage than the other one" doesn't work as a balance point for healers since they already do relatively low damage (vs the DPSers). Because of this, encounters are based around them doing a rough amount of damage. You can't have one really exceed (or fall below) this. AST is low but the buffs to the party's damage balance that out so that all healers come out relatively even. You can't reward someone juggling the 7 DoTs with more damage while they're still also a healer. It's like the problem with MCH being the "selfish DPS" of the Ranged subrole, a subrole that is balanced around doing less...damage...than the other DPS subroles.

Or... because blm does not give an swift raise which is extremely valuable in prog scenario?

But if damage > all, that shouldn't matter. Moreover, this is true of some other roles as well where that which is easier is more often picked than that which is harder IF they achieve the same basic result.

Besides that argument of yours could be twisted very easily, if players want easy, then why Sage (which is an easier Sch) hasn't been present in either P4S WF and DSR WF? Why is that Whm hasnt been present there either? Why DSR WF had a Mnk instead of the more simple Rpr?

SGE isn't easier than SCH. I say this as a person that plays both. They're honestly roughly comparable. I like SCH better because I feel its healing kit is more flexible (e.g. better) than SGE's to use. SGE is a control healer that is weak when the situation isn't well controlled while SCH has more buffer for that.

[Nadda]

Wouldn't a job representation metric based on WF groups be heavily flawed and skewed a small spectrum of jobs anyways?
It would make more sense on seeing what jobs are clearing the content, to begin with, that's a much larger ratio.
When you're considering job balance the least of your concerns should be what the top percentile are doing with your game. That's exactly what WoW does and it makes the game transcendently worse. The Game at large is not about Progging metas or niche one-off scenarios. This thread is about removing a core role category. Under the pretense that this is necessity taking over, but it's not.

The OP himself started off complaining about how he had nobody in his friend group who wanted to play healer. (probably because it's a thankless job, where you get threads like this when people get a sliver of power and leeway, never accounting for the devs could take away those toys at any moment, it's very apparent there's a lot of hegemonization going on among classes in the attempt to continually produce new jobs every expansion)

Also isn't managing people's health where most of a healer's focus would go? What exactly would a rotation add to that gameplay experience? No kit far as I'm aware for a healer would have a sufficient gap closer to necessitate a 1-2-3 rotation except for our shield healers but if that's the case you sort of already got what you wanted playing those jobs. Pure healing jobs like Whitemage - We can't exactly weave healing in between if it's not required because that be a net loss. I wish for example we could get additional charges of Assize based off how many lilies we have or something so I could at least go assize (x3) pluse a nuke misery at the end. That be something.

To be quite honest I really don't like the rotations in FF because I don't have any real control over it. Baring gap closers you have no say in what is happening you're just pressing what procs, single target or multitarget. Whatever the game tells you to press. Even though I'm a glare mage and press 1 button I at least have the freedom to dash in with my arsenal of heals whatever I want inbetween. I don't feel limited. I may not ever have to use my full kit, but I have 100% access to it. It actually reminds me of leveling 1-50 back in the day was so painful, because I felt limited in my abilities. I think now I may have too many healing options is the real problem but at least I can use them as I see fit.

That might not be as engaging to you, but you've played healer before... you should know the engagement comes from the fact every fight for a healer is random set of new challenges not just the damage that is dished out. People aren't perfect, We make up for the mistakes that happen so people who can dps can continue to dps, As a healer your responisbility is not just keeping your party alive and contributing your share of dps but making sure you execute all the mechanics perfectly so you don't have to waste time healing yourself.

EDIT>>

And to mention one more thing. Any self heal is a DPS loss for a DPS or a Tank. I know we healers need to contribute to DPS but it's not our Jobs, We give you what we can give you but that's not what we are there for. Our Healing if we need to heal is so that the people who can deal the most damage can continue. If you need to press your self heal at anymoment as a DPS, it's probably because you're trying to circumvent mechanics you fudged up, but in that second you're casting a self heal you could have been casting more damage. You definitely do more damage than me as a healer... so where are your priorities actually wanting self heals?

[Silverbane]

And to mention one more thing. Any self heal is a DPS loss for a DPS or a Tank.

Not true. For example:

Warrior "Raw Intuition" is Instant and oGCD, "Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered"
Melee DPS "Bloodbath" is Instant and oGCD, "Converts a portion of physical damage dealt into HP."
Dancer "Curing Waltz" is Instant and oGCD, "Restores own HP and the HP of all nearby party members."

[Nadda]

Not true. For example:
"

Yes, those are good points. I wasn't forgetting to mention those on purpose they've been brought up already. The idea was to give people more self heals to circumvent the need for a healing role.

But more so I was saying before is you're weaving in these instead of doing more damage. Only the first two are self-healing based on dealing damage at least. Bloodbath is a bit of a meh because it really doesn't do enough to the point where you could say it's circumventing a healer, and you do have the caveat of needing to still be doing damage to the boss for it to be useful. Imagine a world where you pressed it right at the same moment you have to go avoid something. That healing becomes worthless.

Curing Waltz is just a good group healing ability for utility. It has a very small range but it's useful. Good for stacks I reckon. 60 second cool down is very perilous in a world where you need to do that more than once, unless we're class stacking dancers, so choosing when to use that heal is a big deal iunno (never played Dancer) I do know they are on the lowest end of the DPS role spectrum.. Showing at least there does have to be a sacrifice for that utility. This is more to my point that Healers are taking the DPS loss to support the group by design.

And Warriors...
Do you have any idea how grotesquely overpowered this job is? (don't get me wrong I love it but) You can't just pit me against this insane juggernaut of self-healing and tell me this is the way the game should be?? *Pinch Ears*

I'm like the bird picking off ticks on the back of a hippo with these guys. It's the one Tank out of them all that really doesn't need anybody else. When I talk about the game turning into a pseudo weird solo game where you don't need a group, I just imagine every job playing like Warrior in some way. But that's sort of the identity of Warrior just being this big barreling towards you unga bunga berserker.

[Nadda]

Ahem* I digress enough Warrior gushing.
The point is we're at a point where we have all this utility, all this homogenization, strong tanks, and strong healers.
The game going forward is either going to have to become incredibly harder mechanically to really separate the boys from men. Like maybe Extreme just becomes the default. OR we're gonna get nerfed into oblivion next expansion. So people heavily relying on these things are gonna be in for a wake-up call.
This is why I called it Arrogant Ignorance. In my first post in this thread. People have a scrap of power and they think they own the world, but never stop to question why they have this power or where it comes from, and where it leads.
If we're gonna say fights are so easy we don't need healing which isn't true for the vast majority, do you honestly think the first gameplay change the devs will make is removing healing from their core design principles first? Remove White Mage from a Final Fantasy game? Of course they wouldn't!
It's not even an argument about what conclusion the Devs will make and what they'll go after first in order to restore balance.

Edit>> Third option I just thought of. They keep things as is. I mean there's no reason to make the game super difficult and extremely challenging for the majority of the player base. We should all be able to have fun playing what we want and we sort of have that right now. So maybe I'm wrong about it having to go either extreme... but I would say don't be surprised if you got your jobs nerfed first before they removed healers.

[Silverbane]

Curing Waltz is just a good group healing ability for utility. It has a very small range but it's useful.

Well, I left off that it also heals your dance partner and people near (within 3y of) them.
So partner with the tank and you can often heal the mDPS. Sheild Samba (10% damage protection) is the same way.

I do know they are on the lowest end of the DPS role spectrum.

I play Dancer because for me it's the most fun of the DPS classes to run. Yes, I can do more single-target damage on Reaper, but I like Dancer better.

And Warriors...
Do you have any idea how grotesquely overpowered this job is? (don't get me wrong I love it but) You can't just pit me against this insane juggernaut of self-healing and tell me this is the way the game should be?? *Pinch Ears*

Since I run WAR as well, yes, I have some idea.
But having watched a Paladin solo a ShB final boss from 43% down to dead, and never having played a Paladin I'm not ready to say that WAR stands out in this regard.

When I talk about the game turning into a pseudo weird solo game where you don't need a group, I just imagine every job playing like Warrior in some way.

I have put forth the proposition that, by design, most Light Party content can be cleared by any three of the four party members, if they're competent. My personal experience agrees with this proposition: I've finished dungeons after the tank, the healer, or a DPS DC'd, and it was slower but not that difficult. And I believe that the intent of this design decision is to allow clears even with one or two fresh sprouts in the party, or in spite of a single griefer.

I don't recall anyone demonstrating that this proposition is false, or even why it should be false.

And it's fine with me if this is true. I enjoy the game as it is: on SGE, on DNC, on WAR, and on most of the other classes I've leveled on the two characters that have reached endgame (and have leveled to 50-75 on the two other characters who haven't reached endgame yet).

[Nadda]

I have put forth the proposition that, by design, most Light Party content can be cleared by any three of the four party members, if they're competent. My personal experience agrees with this proposition: I've finished dungeons after the tank, the healer, or a DPS DC'd, and it was slower but not that difficult. And I believe that the intent of this design decision is to allow clears even with one or two fresh sprouts in the party, or in spite of a single griefer.

Yeah, I've definitely been in scenarios where I've two manned things as a healer. Even solo'd believe it or not. Really depends on the scenario. I think you're right about the intent. That's actually really clever I hadn't even considered that. That being said even though nobody dies on my watch I will say roulettes can be a mixed bag, I wish I had consistent competent groups so many people have.. iunno maybe it's more noticeable when you play healer that some runs with randoms can be... an interesting challenge to manage.

I think that dungeons should remain easy like this in the future nothing wrong with that. My whole point is I just disagree with this whole remove healers thing.

[WaxSw]

For the first: I disagree. Pressing 1-2-3 (no branching path) is not engaging or challenging. It's a fat-finger trap, not a skill check. I DO agree, however, that our rotation is supposed to be GCD healing, and we are denied it by current encounter design.

By the deffinition of the word it is more engaging than just pressing 1, as simple as that. I'm not saying it hard or the peak of the design but even something as basic as that is better than what we have now. The whole GCD healing is avery flawed mentality, a rotation is something that is always useful no matter the situation and thats why its rotating, healing by deffinition has a cap of usefulness and as such a GCD healing rotation only leads to a very unpleasant downtime gameplay and punishing players that know their role (good healers heal just enough because once again, healing has a cap)

This is my point, though - they can't "balance" it because "doing more damage than the other one" doesn't work as a balance point for healers since they already do relatively low damage (vs the DPSers). Because of this, encounters are based around them doing a rough amount of damage. You can't have one really exceed (or fall below) this. AST is low but the buffs to the party's damage balance that out so that all healers come out relatively even. You can't reward someone juggling the 7 DoTs with more damage while they're still also a healer. It's like the problem with MCH being the "selfish DPS" of the Ranged subrole, a subrole that is balanced around doing less...damage...than the other DPS subroles.

That is a completely non issue and you're assuming a lot of stuff when in reality things could be still balanced, the 7 dot job (which woudnt even need to have 7, just 3 would be enough for many) could do maybe a 0.5%-1% more dps than a simpler healer and it would still woudnt break the game, besides the whole 1 nuke and 1 dot shoudnt be what all healers have to do to deal damage, period, all of them should have their gameplay enhanced. Balance is compatible with good game design is just that healers dont have that design to begin with.

But if damage > all, that shouldn't matter.

In prog utility is very important, especially if you go after world 1st and even with that BLM is still brought to world 1st

Moreover, this is true of some other roles as well where that which is easier is more often picked than that which is harder IF they achieve the same basic result.

Except in the world 1st scenario is not, for people who do that high end content difficulty of a job is a non issue because you've already mastered it no matter the role. People brought a drk to uwu when it was said to be underpeforming, blm world 1st in tea and p4s had a blm, whm is not present in EW world 1st, both brd and dnc have been seen in dsr had a dnc in its world 1st and a brd in world 2nd. People play what they like as long as is not underperforming so much it becomes a liability.

SGE isn't easier than SCH. I say this as a person that plays both. They're honestly roughly comparable

It is and I say this as someone who has brought both to ultimate. Sch has to worry about ED optimization, can't cast shields while moving and has worse movement tools in scenarios with downtime, its perks like the fairy being able to heal 2 places at the same time also require planning to know where to place the fairy and stuff like deplo adlo requires previous knowledge about the fight, when the situation is not controlled Sage can still do the same as their kit are nearly identical. Both are easy jobs as every healer is but Sage is a simplified and less clunky Sch

[Nizzi]

I think rather than saying things like "my job should do more damage because [x]" at this point people should say "you get to have more fun, shut up"
SCH is already the highest rDPS healer in Savage, even beating out SGE. I absolutely think it should have 1-2 more DoTs to manage but I also think it shouldn't be doing more damage for it, in fact I wouldn't care if they nerfed SCH's damage to compensate. I get there are people who will complain about "I do more work than the other healers and I'm not doing way more damage" but who cares? You get to have more fun, that's your reward and that's what SE should say rather than "hmm I guess you're right, it doesn't make sense you do more work so we'll remove those buttons!"

I know people might say "well why would I bring SCH over another healer if I have to do more work for the same amount on DPS as the other healers" and I dunno, why do we do anything in games? Presumably to have fun? It's a hot take but it would be more fun if I had a few more DoTs to track. I don't care if my DPS numbers suffer as long as they're making the job more fun. I love Scholar, I want to play it all the time, it's the only job in this game that I genuinely have any feelings towards other than "yeah it's okay I guess" and I want to see it be the best that it can be.