What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

Pretty sure you're just a vocal minority tho, and that they won't change anything to please you. Just reading out of spite and boredom but the mere fact you want to criticize something "as brutally as possible" and think it's possible to rewrite a story entirely says a lot about y'all.

"Reading out of spite" - yeah, and it shows.

[jameseoakes]

Somehow I never really considered how Azem played into this whole mess until now, and now I'm left feeling baffled by how Yoshi seemingly dismissed the importance of what they had been doing in the period before/after the Final Days.

We know from their story about charging into an active volcano to stop it that they would go to extreme lengths to help people, that they seemed to find the sacrifices needed to summon Zodiark unacceptable even in the face of imminent destruction, and that they refused to take a side once Venat's faction and the Convocation were at odds with each other.

I feel like if they had known about the Sundering, they would not have just idly stood by unless we're dealing with some even deeper layers of causal loop shenanigans and they're also tied up in this mess somehow. Their knowing of our arrival to aid Themis/Elidibus is making me entertain possibilities that I would really rather not have come to fruition; the worst one being that they end up being revealed to be the "old friend" who sent Venat on an errand to Elpis specifically to set off the events there after we end up having to travel back in time again to solve some new problem and give them the long talk about what we're doing there.

All seriousness my headcannon is that Azim went to Venat for help trying to stop the sacrifices to make Zodiark as they thought there must be a better way found out Venats plans and she murdered them to stop them interfering with the sundering

[Misplaced_Marbles]

All seriousness my headcannon is that Azim went to Venat for help trying to stop the sacrifices to make Zodiark as they thought there must be a better way found out Venats plans and she murdered them to stop them interfering with the sundering

And then Azem's lesser iteration helped her complete her mission while nodding like an automaton in agreement for everything she said or did. Wow, now that would be incredibly sad.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Only three catches ? I'm disappointed.

[SentioftheHoukai]

My primary hopes are they quit pushing Venat/Hydaelyn as good and the Ancients as having deserved their fate. I don't expect a rewrite, but characters and text in the game (as well as the short stories I'm apprehensive about) can at least stop referring to that tragedy as a positive thing (or ideally even a reasonable course of action). ShB was much more nuanced. The journal entry for the Shadowbringers quest reads: "You wage a titanic battle not only against Hades, but the hopes and dreams of Ascian-kind, of which he is the keeper. In the end, however, your own unwavering conviction brings the ancient being low. You have done a great and terrible thing."

Plus there's Pandemonium, which has been another source of concern because the dialog with Themis seems to suggest that Azem knows about sundered self and that is definitely crossing a line for me. I suspect Yoshi-P thought everyone would love Venat and the idea of working with her and... no. I'm frustrated, to say the least, that after the neutral Azem we were presented with in ShB who chose neither side that there are some implications we did side with her after all (not to mention us outright siding with her in EW despite the fact that Hydaelyn represents everything the WoL and the Scions have historically been opposed to).

I'm going to state this in bold print: Azem working with Venat is so inconsistent with everything we know of the Azem soul that I would consider it a character and game breaking retcon.

Anyone who feels differently, I invite to replay through the game. I have been on an alt. Pay particularly close attention to the dialog surrounding the WoL, such as Thancred saying they fight for friends not nations, and basically Ardbert's entire arc in HW. Azem siding with Venat means the betrayal of everyone they love and it just wouldn't happen.

I get the impression after EW that Yoshi-P's vision of the WoL is a traveling murder hobo and I think the character and the story has been undermined as a result.

Unfortunately, Square appears to be of the persuasion the fans who aren't fond of Ancients are. That Azem outright rejected the Convocation..... but merely was unable to respond to Venat's faction. They left themselves enough vague leeway, that they are now taking full advantage of to push a particular interpretation and that honestly leaves me rather steamed.

I like to console myself with the mental scenario that Azem was off saving some rad grapes when they got hit by the Sundering out of absolute nowhere, preventing them from saving the grapes.
Venat you monster! What'd the grapes do to you?!

[BaconBits]

Pretty sure you're just a vocal minority tho, and that they won't change anything to please you. Just reading out of spite and boredom but the mere fact you want to criticize something "as brutally as possible" and think it's possible to rewrite a story entirely says a lot about y'all.

[anhaato]

Only three catches ? I'm disappointed.

Me when I’m totally not losing “You sound stupid foh” “Heh… we got some boys”

[PawPaw]

"Remember us. Remember that we once lived… Also remember to watch out for that crazy guy Fandaniel. His pet bird caused the final days. I was there with my good friend Hythlodaeus and we ran into you because you got sent to the past by our good friend Elidibus. We went there to meet our good friend Hermes and his pet bird. Hermes's bird was capable of destroying entire planets because she had emotion energy, a concept so advanced only Hermes and an elephant knew it existed. Hermes was going to let the bird destroy our planet because he wanted to do an experiment. And then he was going to memory wipe all of us until Venat flew in on her magical dog and escaped with you. She then for some reason decided not to tell anyone about what happened and instead doomed us all to die, including our good friend Azem who fell into a Volcano while trying to find the source of the noise even though Venat knew all along because she put a magic microchip on Hermes’s bird. She then became Hydaelyn and sundered the world because a bunch of weak humans who die after 80 years were better equipped to deal with the threat than immortal gods who could create whatever they wanted at will. Except the only “human” that could actually stand up to Meteion was 9/14ths of our good friend Azem who also needed Hydaelyns blessing to survive along with my great-grandson Zenos Viator Galvus who had Hydaelyns blessing too, except his was reverse-engineered in a Garlean laboratory. And he was a good friend."

Bless you for reposting this quote, I am laughing my ass off all over again.

[Rulakir]

Their knowing of our arrival to aid Themis/Elidibus is making me entertain possibilities that I would really rather not have come to fruition; the worst one being that they end up being revealed to be the "old friend" who sent Venat on an errand to Elpis specifically to set off the events there after we end up having to travel back in time again to solve some new problem and give them the long talk about what we're doing there.

I don't understand their love of time loops. I'd consider a loop where the WoL becomes whole just to go back in time to become the Azem of old to be one of the worst possible endings, not the least of which because I don't know who would feel satisfied by it. Hate the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL becomes one at the end of their journey and returns to the unsundered world. Love the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL goes back in time and not only does nothing to save them, but ensures this miserable time loop continues in perpetuity. Ambivalent? Well, your WoL gets no happy ending, there's no 'retirement' for them, there's no returning to the aetherial sea in any meaningful capacity, it's an endless hamster wheel of them going through the Final Days (twice), the Sundering, and everything in between for eternity.

Not to mention I hate paradoxes and this would be yet another one.

[Xirean]

I don't understand their love of time loops. I'd consider a loop where the WoL becomes whole just to go back in time to become the Azem of old to be one of the worst possible endings, not the least of which because I don't know who would feel satisfied by it. Hate the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL becomes one at the end of their journey and returns to the unsundered world. Love the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL goes back in time and not only does nothing to save them, but ensures this miserable time loop continues in perpetuity. Ambivalent? Well, your WoL gets no happy ending, there's no 'retirement' for them, there's no returning to the aetherial sea in any meaningful capacity, it's an endless hamster wheel of them going through the Final Days (twice), the Sundering, and everything in between for eternity.

Not to mention I hate paradoxes and this would be yet another one.

That sounds awful. The loop/paradox thing really bothered me. I'm particularly not a fan of characters being given information of the future because it means there is no proper genesis of that information.