Bring Back Kaiten

[TyrAtatoskr]

i just leveled BLM to 90 like 4 days ago, and i disagree that ley lines being a button isnt essential to the class' feel, but other than that i entirely agree.

i miss old SAM D:

[ThorneDynasty]

i just leveled BLM to 90 like 4 days ago, and i disagree that ley lines being a button isnt essential to the class' feel, but other than that i entirely agree.

i miss old SAM D:

Leylines is so integral to BLM identity in 14 it's iconic at this point. People who've touched BLM immediately go "oh hey it's Leylines!" when they find spells like Terra Magia in Elden Ring, if it wasn't an intentional homage to begin with. They also had it's equivalent in in the FF7 remake, I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to be a series staple that this game contributed.

[RyuuZero]

Leylines is so integral to BLM identity in 14 it's iconic at this point. People who've touched BLM immediately go "oh hey it's Leylines!" when they find spells like Terra Magia in Elden Ring, if it wasn't an intentional homage to begin with. They also had it's equivalent in in the FF7 remake, I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to be a series staple that this game contributed.

yeah I talked about this aswell and I agree, well placed Ley-Lines showcase the Blackmage's Skill^^
.. though I'd like if Ley-Lines would be a Partybuff.. like Casters gain Spellspeed and Melees gain Attack Speed^^

[RyuuZero]

4.: The 2 minute Bursts:
Late in Shadowbringers, I noticed the beauty of Off Global Cool Downs lining up. In Endwalker it got changed that some heavy hitter are on a 2 minute cool down, and then I noticed.. Ikishoten lines up with Senei and Guren! means I can do Ikishoten into Senei (or Guren) All the Time, which I think is nice. In Endwalker that got expanded with Ogi Namikiri, turning Ikishoten into (I call it) The Ogi Trigger which lets me do the following Combo: Ikishoten>Senei>Kaiten>Ogi>Kaeshi all 2 minutes! What I wanna say is, thinking about it I personally do not agree with getting rid of the 2minute busters, first Kyuten is Circle, Guren is Line, do you wanna get rid of more Unique AoEs? playing through SB on an alt it pains me to see how rando Samurai NPC Enemies have a Bigger Tenka Goken than I have! Screw Circle Goken!.. also getting rid of the 2minute busters means we don't have any other skills to line up with Ikishoten.. Ogi gets triggered by Iki so that doesn't count. so again, I'm fine with Off-Gobal Cool Downs lining up together and that design aspect is something I like to have preserved.

5.: The Ogi
At the time of this Post we only have 1 Ogi Skill: Ogi Namikiri.
Ogi Namikiri is a Conal AoE Attack which in my Opinion might contributed to the myth of Samurai having Button Bloat.
Q: What's the Special thing about Ogi?
A: Ogi Skills need Activation through Ikishoten and interestingly behaive like Iaijutsu, because they get affected by Kaiten! (<- which is important to keep in mind, once Kaiten comes back!) In Addition of being just like an Iaijutsu Ogi have a Cast and remarkably turn into their Tsubamegaeshi Version on the Same Button! (which kind of makes way for the suggestion of turning Tsubamegaeshi into a Trait for Iaijutsu, turning Iaijutsu into a Double Tab Skill, kind of how Illusion Jump works for Dragoon right now!)

[RyuuZero]

My Suspicion as an Arguement for Removing Kaiten might be because Ogi can be enhanced by Kaiten which.. if that was the exact reason for Removing Kaiten.. Just make Ogi not be affected by Kaiten!! which may would go against the Utility of Kaiten to Utilize Kenki to Boost Damage (to Kaiten the Ogi was a bit of a Learning Curve for me, I admit but it was a Learning Curve I took gratefully! and it was taken from me and many other Samurai Player in 6.1!) The thing is I do not see it, Samurai without Kaiten, maybe in a thorough rework.. but why? Samurai worked, it still is playable now but not as enjoyable as it used to be with feeble reasoning The Synergy of Iaijutsu and Kenki is Destroyed, which is my main reason for disliking the direction and execution of the 6.1 Change for Samurai (6.1 PvP Samurai was it's saving grace.. but I don't play FFXIV for PvP.. I play Overwatch for PvP, Total Mayhem to be exact) was there even serious commentary about Button Bloat on Samurai? (outside of turning Shoha into AoE Only, which I also disagree because it would remove options how to use resources)

Again: I just want that they Bring Back Kaiten!

[ThorneDynasty]

So basically someone slightly messed up with the job design not realizing the a skill was either too powerful or action bloated in conjunction with Kaiten, and instead of doing anything reasonable about a flashy but ultimately unnecessary 6.0 skill, they instead panic remove a core skill since the job's conception?

That might actually be a reasonable explanation of the dev's thought process. Rather blame the old design than take a hard look at the current direction in the new baby expansion.

[RyuuZero]

So basically someone slightly messed up with the job design not realizing the a skill was either too powerful or action bloated in conjunction with Kaiten, and instead of doing anything reasonable about a flashy but ultimately unnecessary 6.0 skill, they instead panic remove a core skill since the job's conception?

That might actually be a reasonable explanation of the dev's thought process. Rather blame the old design than take a hard look at the current direction in the new baby expansion.

I wouldn't say that they messed up with Ogi, they basicly added a New Skill to the 2minute circle, which in my opinion is okay, the thing that annoys me about it that Kenki is now only used for the Kenki Attacks and nothing else. Though.. I also do not see where the Samurai Rotation was generally bloated or felt alienatingly weird (why break what works just fine?) Ogi Namikiri is the same as Guren, means in 7.0 there will be an Single Target Ogi added, why? because It's Okay to have Options and the Old Kenki was utilized to amp up your (mostly) Iaijutsu Damage, which gave the Player more responsibility to boost their damage on their own by mastering Kenki Management, Now it's just "Hey! do you have enough Kenki?Ye..Shinten!"

.. you know..that baby expansion comment kinda slaps, good job xD

[ThorneDynasty]

Yeah, I don't think it's actually a flaw if you lose relatively a lot of DPS not using buffs properly during your burst. But I can see how the dev team under the current philosophy of keeping everything as forgiving as possible looked at the 1 extra required Kaiten in the rotation and decided it was a step too punishing. There are other options, but regime says keep it simple enough, so I guess when in doubt dumb it down.

[darkdyllon]

I wasn't arguing your point. I'm just pointing out the reasoning behind the suggestions made.

I don't consider it bloat either and I play on console/controller. But you can't deny that if you boil down their purposes, they're redundant and could just as easily be made into a targeted aoe with falloff damage to preserve the action while reducing the number of buttons that exist, as a compromise to certain excuses made about why Kaiten was removed.

Never said you were wrong. But the fact that they're identical skills for highly situational moments means they're redundant at the end of the day. When 70 was the cap and we had Guren, we used that on single target bosses and in aoe pulls. It's the same as BLM having a really powerful aoe spell at the end of their rotation back then. Then both were given a similar skill made just for single target. While cool, and making it a choice, it was technically unnecessary.

I like having all of them exist. But I was not trying to say your view is wrong, just explaining the reasoning you seemed to question in the earlier post.

but why stop there then.
plenty of other jobs have these redundant parts of their kit that could easily be done differently.
for example Paladin, you use Holy Shelltron on every tank buster, no exception, make it an passive trait. (taking the piss, but having "redundant" parts is neccessary like Kaiten being used before every Iaitsu)

their reasoning is just bad, but the thing that bothers me is that they are more than willing to actively rebalance PvP, but PvE need to wait 4 months for any decent job changes that needs to happen.
meanwhile, Kaitens removal has sparked mass outrage, MCH for example atm requires an ping mitigation 3rd party tool to work fine on higher than average ping.
meanwhile SE though goes hard on getting rid of most 3rd party tools (let's be real, people use them just the rule of "shut up about it" applies) but the fact that this is such an major issue, years after it's been known is just jarring.

[darkdyllon]

I wouldn't say that they messed up with Ogi, they basicly added a New Skill to the 2minute circle, which in my opinion is okay, the thing that annoys me about it that Kenki is now only used for the Kenki Attacks and nothing else. Though.. I also do not see where the Samurai Rotation was generally bloated or felt alienatingly weird (why break what works just fine?) Ogi Namikiri is the same as Guren, means in 7.0 there will be an Single Target Ogi added, why? because It's Okay to have Options and the Old Kenki was utilized to amp up your (mostly) Iaijutsu Damage, which gave the Player more responsibility to boost their damage on their own by mastering Kenki Management, Now it's just "Hey! do you have enough Kenki?Ye..Shinten!"

.. you know..that baby expansion comment kinda slaps, good job xD

people have gone through every excuse they had at this point and only 1 makes sense.

the action/button bloat has been severely debunked.

the other was the DPS variance caused by high critical hits (which every job suffers under but only SAM got gutted, which by that alone is debunked)

the last was that the job balancer in question had difficulities balancing the job around Kaiten, so they removed it in favor of that. (lazy as all hell though)