What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Xirean]

But then twitter would be upset and we can't have that. Need these characters alive so twitter keeps making fanart of them which is free advertisement. Can't have consequences in our story anymore. We saw what happens when a character gets killed off. You don't see anyone making Ysale fanart these days, for example. So now we only kill off side characters nobody cares about.

What do you mean? I saw an awesome Ysale cosplay just the other day.

But yeah, the side characters dying off is something that's been an issue for a while. The moment I saw Meteion I already knew "you are the adorable thing that's going to try to hurt me later." It's very difficult to care about anybody now as it's become so consistent and obvious what will happen with them. Part of the reason I was happy to have Estinien added was that they would show other sides of his character, which they are actually doing.

[AziraSyuren]

Perhaps, crazy take here, perhaps not having a clear, coherent planned outline for the story from the very beginning (along with changing writers multiple times) was not a good idea and has led to this contradictory, schizophrenic writing. Maybe just having a single writer who planned everything out from the beginning and just stuck with it would've led to a much better plot. Rather than changing both the intention for the plot and the writers behind it multiple times, along with having writers who are influenced by social media and care too much about appeasment and fanservice than the integrity of their writing.

Then again if they stuck with ARR's story direction this would've been significantly worse. I'd much rather what we have now than saturday-morning cartoon writing that ARR was and the story would've continued to be had the writers stuck with the original direction back then.

Yeah, it'd probably result in a better story, but, like. It's not actually feasible?

Writers simply don't do this. They can't. Nobody has the capacity to plan a story (with constant updates, so writers who take ten years to write a book [series] don't count) ten years in advance outside of very broad strokes things. It's why long-running stories- especially anime and manga- often become nothing resembling their original selves after being serialized for so long. Even the gold standards of long-running Shonen, such as One Piece, have had their cracks start to show more and more over time. Even the best-written video game stories that take place over multiple installments have much less story content than even a single expansion of FFXIV, and even those stories end up being barely recognizable by the end.

FFXIV was ultimately doomed by the format. There's no getting around this. Even the biggest fans of the story will eventually see the point where they don't like it anymore unless they consume it in the moment with no regard for what came before and after.

[Lucida3b]

The general impression is that the writers had the whole "The deaths of the Ancients was an acceptable, natural consequence of the rules of suffering and existence" moral in their heads and everything in Endwalker was shoehorned into that lesson, even if it contradicted past information. I think it was Paw Paw who said it here first, but it seems like the writers were afraid of having some Ancients oppose the third sacrifice because it would demonstrate that there were, indeed, Ancients who weren't "deserving" of being Sundered. It would leave questions of why Venat didn't spare them.

We can't even go with a "The Sundering was indiscriminate and her allies were simply unfortunate" because the devs went on record and said Venat specifically spared Emet-Selch.

The whole thing comes across to me like writing yourself into a corner, and then making a dozen MORE mistakes trying to write yourself out of it.

The thing is the biggest issue seems to deal with venat mainly, like the most simple solution would be.... have the sundering be a accident. There is a reason a lot of us wonder if there was a 'war' or control issues with multiple writers, one of whom must have really liked venat

[CrownySuccubus]

Yeah, it'd probably result in a better story, but, like. It's not actually feasible?

Writers simply don't do this. They can't. Nobody has the capacity to plan a story (with constant updates, so writers who take ten years to write a book [series] don't count) ten years in advance outside of very broad strokes things. It's why long-running stories- especially anime and manga- often become nothing resembling their original selves after being serialized for so long. Even the gold standards of long-running Shonen, such as One Piece, have had their cracks start to show more and more over time. Even the best-written video game stories that take place over multiple installments have much less story content than even a single expansion of FFXIV, and even those stories end up being barely recognizable by the end.

FFXIV was ultimately doomed by the format. There's no getting around this. Even the biggest fans of the story will eventually see the point where they don't like it anymore unless they consume it in the moment with no regard for what came before and after.

Yeah, and sticking hard to a planned-out plot also isn't an inherent formula to success, either. Some stories can also suffer if the story and its characters undergo organic growth. That's one of the things that a lot of post-mortem analyses say Game of Thrones did wrong. They had a basic outline based on how they wanted the story to end, but didn't bother making that mesh with how their characters have evolved beyond GRRM's original writing.

The thing is the biggest issue seems to deal with venat mainly, like the most simple solution would be.... have the sundering be a accident. There is a reason a lot of us wonder if there was a 'war' or control issues with multiple writers, one of whom must have really liked venat

I think one of them thought similarly to me:

"The whole 'God of Light is evil' thing is really cliche, so what if we subverted that subversion?"

But then, somebody went off the deep end:



"Okay, but we've already established that the Sundering was a morally gray act."

"So what if we make it so that it was actually the 'right thing' to do all along?"

"....So you want us to come up with a reason to justify genocide?"

"No no no. Don't be silly. .............. We just won't CALL it genocide."

[Lauront]

I mean, if you say so?

That's not the sort of thing that anybody, including myself, would actually admit to anyway.

Is there a reason to question my words? It genuinely does not enter my mind as a motivation when playing a game, the idea of bragging about it.

To me this sounds like some intellectual exercise that becomes a game in and of itself to some. I mean no offence by this - purely that it seems like a specific facet of a game (or other piece of art) that some people enjoy more than others. I can relate to this in a work of pure narration to some degree, but games offer more besides that, especially ones that invite you to roleplay in them and invent your own characters etc. Of course I can appreciate the use of themes in some contexts, particularly if subtle (sort of like laying around clues for connecting elements in terms of the world-building aspect for some, I guess), but for me the major draws tend to be carefully constructed worlds, that feel as much as possible alive, for the purposes of escapism, and strong character writing where their motives feel authentic but it is left to me to decide how I view this and where I put my allegiances. Political intrigue (in the GoT vein) is another draw.

Aside from the fact that the MMO market is somewhat slim pickings at the moment, and putting aside the fact that it's not my usual type of game, XIV drew my interest because I found it had a well designed enough setting, and I thought the story was going in interesting directions in SB and SHB, to the degree that I could overlook the "themes" to some extent; and yes, I did find the approach SHB was taking to have the MC's mortal enemies come to some manner of understanding with them, and the hint at a deeper and shared background both for them and the main character, to be strong draws. The ancient culture is the most intriguing one they've explored to date. Overall, it was a fresh approach. One which I believe EW lit up in flames in its desperation to justify the status quo of the setting (sundering), in spite of employing narrative devices which could have allowed you to see how things would've gone if resolved better. So yes, I am bitterly disappointed in it, and I agree with you that in this case the ideal would be for the writers to learn from it... to the extent that they acknowledge it's an issue. But it has little to do with the desire to brag.

[CrownySuccubus]

Is there a reason to question my words? It genuinely does not enter my mind as a motivation when playing a game, the idea of bragging about it.

Again, if you say so.

Frankly, there is zero reason for you feel a personal stake in declaring that this very general issue does not apply to you. It's like if someone in a room full of strangers said, "Most human beings are selfish" and you decided to stand up and declare "Well I'm not!" to people who have never met you before. Either way, it's neither something anyone can verify, nor is it relevant to the general point.

and yes, I did find the approach SHB was taking to have the MC's mortal enemies come to some manner of understanding with them, and the hint at a deeper and shared background both for them and the main character, to be strong draws. The ancient culture is the most intriguing one they've explored to date. Overall, it was a fresh approach. One which I believe EW lit up in flames in its desperation to justify the status quo of the setting (sundering), in spite of employing narrative devices which could have allowed you to see how things would've gone if resolved better. So yes, I am bitterly disappointed in it, and I agree with you that in this case the ideal would be for the writers to learn from it... to the extent that they acknowledge it's an issue. But it has little to do with the desire to brag.

Again, if not then good for you -- but even if this were the case, this is not something most people would even admit to themselves. But the fact remains that, in general, people like feeling that the things they invest their time in have meaning and makes them special for understanding, completing, mastering, or investing time in it. Even if they never brag outwardly to another person, it still gives them that warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

If you claim that this does not apply to you, or doesn't apply you specifically for this game, then great.

[Theodric]

If the intention wasn't to garner some manner of reaction, then surely such statements wouldn't be posted in the first place let alone in such a vague manner...?

[CrownySuccubus]

If the intention wasn't to garner some manner of reaction, then surely such statements wouldn't be posted in the first place let alone in such a vague manner...?

...What? I'm sure you're aware that not every post on a forum is to "garner a reaction". Some, like mine, are meant to be general observations or context provided to a discussion.

That was specifically why I did not directly quote anyone when I first brought it up. I specifically tried to make it absolutely clear that the statement was not being made to refer to any one, specific person, within this thread.

[Caurcas]

Headcanons are strange in the XIV realm. People oft take it for canon.

[Lauront]

Again, if you say so.

Frankly, there is zero reason for you feel a personal stake in declaring that this very general issue does not apply to you. It's like if someone in a room full of strangers said, "Most human beings are selfish" and you decided to stand up and declare "Well I'm not!" to people who have never met you before. Either way, it's neither something anyone can verify, nor is it relevant to the general point.



Again, if not then good for you -- but even if this were the case, this is not something most people would even admit to themselves. But the fact remains that, in general, people like feeling that the things they invest their time in have meaning and makes them special for understanding, completing, mastering, or investing time in it. Even if they never brag outwardly to another person, it still gives them that warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

If you claim that this does not apply to you, or doesn't apply you specifically for this game, then great.

I don't feel a personal stake - I'd assumed you were making a general statement but thought I'd comment on it from my perspective. Regarding the second paragraph, I believe it is difficult to take up a hobby and not feel any of those but they're also quite different things to bragging at that point, which is done to flaunt something for the purposes of improving social standing. I'd perhaps demur from the "makes them special" part, but in the sense that people expect some manner of emotional payoff/satisfaction from investing time in a hobby, which can come in the form of those things you mention? Yes, absolutely, and I think it'd be difficult to pursue a hobby while detaching completely from such emotions.