What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[AziraSyuren]

Zodiark's design actually makes a lot of sense, as does the mask the Ancients put on him.

Remember, that during his design and creation, the Final Days had spread everywhere except to Amaurot's region. We know it affects entire regions. Anyway, the people who made him and the people who gave their lives to him were those who had resisted the effects of the Final Days. Resisted an inimical force that affects their very thoughts, beings, and most importantly creation magicks.

So Zodiark was created under a lot of strain and duress. He carried a lot of monstrous things with the gravity of the powers he would possess, that intrinsically came at the cost of so many loved ones.

Imagine having to create a man like being from the remains of your best friend. Of the remains of your wife. Your brothers.

Now imagine you also have to do that while someone holds a loaded and cocked gun to your forehead.

How do you think your creation is going to look?

I never thought of it that way. That makes a lot of sense. It kinda does give off strong "art born from suffering" vibes with that in mind.

[CrownySuccubus]

While that explanation is cool and well thought-out, it's stated in ShB that Darkness-aligned beings (such as Voidsent) inherently take more twisted and demonic forms because Darkness is a force that accelerates mutation and change. As opposed to Light, which represents stillness and stagnation, and thus typically has more serene and angelic forms.

Still has nothing to do with good and evil.

[YukikoKurosawa]

As opposed to Light, which represents stillness and stagnation, and thus typically has more serene and angelic forms.

[CrownySuccubus]

What's your point? I didn't think I'd have to appendix my statement with, "there are exceptions" or "angelic and demonic also has nothing to do with beauty", but okay.



To demonstrate, THIS is an angel as described in the Bible:

[Theodric]

I would have liked to have seen Hydaelyn's appearance grow progressively stranger the more desperate she became. Though according to the codex she never even second guessed her commitment to her plan which simply further erodes away my sympathy towards her.

How we're meant to align her act of genocide with never wavering in her judgement is anyone's guess.

[AziraSyuren]

I would have liked to have seen Hydaelyn's appearance grow progressively stranger the more desperate she became. Though according to the codex she never even second guessed her commitment to her plan which simply further erodes away my sympathy towards her.

How we're meant to align her act of genocide with never wavering in her judgement is anyone's guess.

That's consistent with her being light-aspected, at least. Although I think I would've preferred that consistency being ignored in favor of her going through the same kind of degradation of mind and motive that Elidibus did.

[Lelila38]

That's consistent with her being light-aspected, at least. Although I think I would've preferred that consistency being ignored in favor of her going through the same kind of degradation of mind and motive that Elidibus did.

The more I think about it, the more I start getting to the point of how do we know she's not? The game doesn't explicitly state it, sure. But what if, same as Elidibus, she was ultimately reduced to focusing solely on her original goal of protect the WoL and preserve the timeline? It would certainly be in line with her doing seemingly unreasonable things and saying stuff that's objectively not true.
Also the point you brought up with light and dark aspects, stagnation vs change, might serve to make her degradation slower than it was in Elidibus.

Just me musing, feel free to bring evidence to contradict it.

[Teraq]

spitting the truth on Ascian tempering being bs

All of this and more: I think the only solid evidence we have on Convocation tempering is Altima's crystal commenting on her(?) soul turning. But we have no idea how it affected their thought process all the same.

Given that we know tempering lingers after death as you brought up, and both Emet-Selch and Fandaniel were perfectly able to act against their "god", I'm going to write Zodiark's tempering away as irrelevant ultimately.

People won't, though. You and I plainly know "THE CONVOCATION WAS TEMPERED!!!!" is going to be used, again and again, as ammo for the CONVOCATION BAD / BIASED / MISGUIDED narrative by people with a certain agenda.

And how convenient it is that it turned out Mother never tempered anyone, herself! She's so good, you guys. Why did we ever worry about her being a primal?

Although I think I would've preferred that consistency being ignored in favor of her going through the same kind of degradation of mind and motive that Elidibus did.

File this one under "things 5.3 brought up they didn't do anything with", along with Elidibus's character, the rest of the Convocation existing and Fandaniel's crystal memory being curiously choppy.

I'd like to genuinely ask "why the hell would they bring this up with Elidibus but never mention it when we deal with his counterpart?", but I know the answer: his amnesia was a plot contrivance so they wouldn't have to deal with incorporating the new Ascian backstory into the longest-standing (and still alive) antagonist too much. Because then you'd start asking "why would the guy who is literally the Convocation's mediator not be the one to reveal this whole damned backstory to get us to sympathize with their side, rather than a character who was just introduced for this expansion?", and the answer to that is "because Ishikawa plays favorites".

[Brinne]

re: the Emet and Tempering conversation, I personally see it as more "influence" than control, if I had to say, but I also remember a conversation I had with a friend about this that has always stuck with me since: that ultimately, Zodiark is literally formed as the personification of the collective will of his people and their cries for salvation. So whether you take it strictly literally or not: Emet is still ultimately in a position where he feels forced to suppress his own feelings and will in favor of that of his people, and that's what truly matters so far as how it informs his character and actions.

Which led to a more general conversation about possibly interpreting Primals as an aspect of We Live In A Society, but that's not as, uh, relevant to the current discussion.

[Teraq]

I feel like, if anything, this is even more of an argument for Zodiark's tempering not mattering, because the way I see Shadowbringers, Emet is pointedly not suppressing his emotions throughout, particularly not in Amaurot. He might even had defeated us, was he not a sentimental fool who had an inkling the WoL was Azem.

And then of course there is him backstabbing the last hope of his people in 5.3. I often see it argued that tempering fades upon death, but the only evidence we actually have points to the contrary:

As curious a phrase as it is, I've never taken that quote to imply he couldn't change course - he did after all in 5.3, when he comes to the WoL's assistance in SoS (really, as far back as 5.0, although this was more debatable back then but became clearer with post-5.0 interviews.) Fandaniel too was able to go as far as assuming control of the primal - and lest anyone say he's sundered and thus the Aetherial Sea would wash this away (ditto with Emet in 5.3 after his 'death'), Emet-Selch had another quote to the effect of the Ascians preferring the souls of the original summoners because faith in Zodiark is seared onto them, so that it's far from clear that this would remove tempering.