Been seeing a lot of doomsaying in forums/in-game lately

[WaxSw]

There are, but these are not random PF people getting together and doing it, these are groups of coordinated people in the best gear.

We've already told you and showed you how you don't need Bis for that just a bit of coordination to not stack mitigation that can't stack

Healer engagement is always determined by how badly other people are playing even in other games. Even if the design forces you to heal by doing constant raid-wide damage, there are times where most of the team die to their own mistakes and as a healer you turn that around and it feels good.

Healer engagement is determined by how badly other's play but it should never be denied without it.

Even in those games with higher healing requirements healers have a sufficient kit for the downtime because by the oportunity cost nature of healing a fixed healing slot always means that downtime will be there and the more skilled the player the more present it is.
Neglecting it means creating a gameplay loop where the better the player gets the worse the rewards become. On top of that healers in those games tend to have very differentiated healing kits that have depth on its own so the engagement is there

FFXIV healers fail on both fronts:

-When the damage is not high the amount of downtime tools healers have are insufficient and homogeneized (this can be proven loking at logs with over 100+ casts of the same spell on every healer being that cast from 40-70% of the total actions the job does), this scenario tends to be the more common due to the low heal requirements of the game and how even in endgame the majority of the damage is avoidable

-When the damage is high (it tends to be 1 shot which can't be healed but lets ignore that) the amount of healing tools are redundant and shallow, rarely healing kits interact with each other past "buff all healing by X%", rarely we see heals being anything past "Heal/Shield by X potency" with the eventual "damage mitigation by X%" and even more rarely we see resources that are not simply time gated. Individually those problems aren't a big deal but when combined it creates a kit that is not designed to be engaging outside the learning period.

[SieyaM]

We've already told you and showed you how you don't need Bis for that just a bit of coordination to not stack mitigation that can't stack



Healer engagement is determined by how badly other's play but it should never be denied without it.

Even in those games with higher healing requirements healers have a sufficient kit for the downtime because by the oportunity cost nature of healing a fixed healing slot always means that downtime will be there and the more skilled the player the more present it is.
Neglecting it means creating a gameplay loop where the better the player gets the worse the rewards become. On top of that healers in those games tend to have very differentiated healing kits that have depth on its own so the engagement is there

FFXIV healers fail on both fronts:

-When the damage is not high the amount of downtime tools healers have are insufficient and homogeneized (this can be proven loking at logs with over 100+ casts of the same spell on every healer being that cast from 40-70% of the total actions the job does), this scenario tends to be the more common due to the low heal requirements of the game and how even in endgame the majority of the damage is avoidable

-When the damage is high (it tends to be 1 shot which can't be healed but lets ignore that) the amount of healing tools are redundant and shallow, rarely healing kits interact with each other past "buff all healing by X%", rarely we see heals being anything past "Heal/Shield by X potency" with the eventual "damage mitigation by X%" and even more rarely we see resources that are not simply time gated. Individually those problems aren't a big deal but when combined it creates a kit that is not designed to be engaging outside the learning period.

Fine then you win, the game is terrible and should die in a fire. Look I don't what you want here some kind of validation that no one ever need play a healer again or that the jobs could be deleted without repercussion?

[WaxSw]

Fine then you win, the game is terrible and should die in a fire. Look I don't what you want here some kind of validation that no one ever need play a healer again or that the jobs could be deleted without repercussion?

I'm just trying to call out wrong arguments that have been proven wrong yet keep being repeated at the same time I, as someone who mains the role, try to give proofs and arguments about how the role is right now not in a good state in the forums designated to have those kind of discussions.

That doesn't sound to me as someone who wants the game to die nor the role to dissapear but someone who wants it to get better again and its kinda tired of the people who doesn't even come close to main it repeating the same false premises and justifying bad design choices

[Ryaz]

I like your take, but i think it goes both ways. The official forums is like the medium of FFXIV discussion. Both sides can talk it out a little bit more than the other platforms. Not as spicy as 2/4 chan but not as defensive as Reddit/twitter.

You're easily get piled on for saying something negative here as you will saying something positive. Its just here you have a chance of running into someone that has the same viewpoints.

I agree that the positive people can be bad at times as well and ignore the problems the game does have. Fanboys are around for every title, unfortunately. As I said, I've seen some good discussions, but things definitely skew to the negative a LOT more here. And so much of it is literally about the game being bad, the devs being lazy, things being changed.... and it's not "I'm not a fan of this change" type of discussion, but instead is always "OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING! THE GAME IS A DUMPSTER FIRE THAT WILL NEVER GET BETTER!" type hyperbole. Those are the ones I tend to call out. Because there is, unfortunately, a lot of it. For example, I don't agree with the removal of Kaiten as I liked using the ability myself and felt it flowed nicely. But losing it and the change to more consistent damage over burst isn't make or break for me. But you go into the DPS forums and the entire front page is about how Samurai is now garbage, act like its completely unplayable and people are quitting over it.

A lot of comments also seem to be people reminiscing over the old days and how much better the game was than it is now... which happens every single expansion and frankly, I'm glad the game is changing. If we were still like we were in 2.0, HW, SB, etc, we'd be stagnant and the game would probably die even more quickly. Things will never be the same in an MMO as they were previously. They are constantly evolving and changing. I just tend to adapt with the times and try to see all the good things, even if I don't agree with every change.

As for the Healer issue, I agree they should have more to do. I always felt healers should be more of a healer/support, giving various buffs along with heals and some dps. That would help mix things up a bit. I'm also hoping the Criterion Dungeons help give us some more challenging 4 man content where healers are actually needed more.

[Deceptus]

That is true in savage but in other content such as extreme, normal, alliance raids or dungeons there is a lot of opportunity for it.

I was in a Castrum Marinum EX (emerald) yesterday. LOTs of new folks in the party.

The first mechanic about 30 seconds in requires pairs of people to soak orbs and rotate to a different color set.

Too far away from your partner when that happens? Instant party wipe, and the tolerance of just how far you can be from your partner is razor thin.

We spent a good 15m trying to herd that group of cats to get them to understand that 2 people had to move at the same time and be in the same spot.

We eventually cleared but that's just a single example. There was zero way a healer could recover from that. And that was just the first major mechanic of that fight.

[Ryaz]

To be honest I feel the real danger is focusing too much on the forums.

Most casual players aka the majority simply leave if the game doesnt agree with them, no point wasting time arguing with forum randos. Going by games like WoW it actually feels more dangerous to listen to forums because you end up trying to design a game around often the most tryhard and unhealthy toxic people by listening to them instead of the silent droves that left, hence why unsubscribe feedback is important.

FF14 doesnt have any big glaring issues, job design will always have people who have issues with it, I myself dislike the lack of utility since it makes dungeons boring since I want to do more than dps for example but its not "that" game breaking. It has a few issues but nothing feel as enormous to consider worth of doomsaying

And the story is the story, I obviously would have much preferred to join Emet against Venat and bring back the old factually better world than what we got.
What we got has some minor plot holes but it was mostly handled well, it didnt feel ridiculous or stupid like the average western game story ending.

Just really want to disagree with your "factually better world" statement. The Ancient world may have been beautiful, but it was filled with people who had no clue how to deal with negative emotions and dictated life and death on a whim. When something did go wrong, they had zero clue how to live with it and decided it would better to sacrifice millions of innocent lives to try and bring back their perfect paradise instead of learning and growing stronger. They were in danger of stagnating and dying out, because they couldn't move forward, and were always one catastrophe away from self-extinction because they couldn't handle bad feelings. Personally, I wouldn't call that better myself. It's an opinion, not fact. And I personally wouldn't have wanted to murderer billions of innocent lives to bring back a dead race.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Just really want to disagree with your "factually better world" statement. The Ancient world may have been beautiful, but it was filled with people who had no clue how to deal with negative emotions and dictated life and death on a whim. When something did go wrong, they had zero clue how to live with it and decided it would better to sacrifice millions of innocent lives to try and bring back their perfect paradise instead of learning and growing stronger. They were in danger of stagnating and dying out, because they couldn't move forward, and were always one catastrophe away from self-extinction because they couldn't handle bad feelings. Personally, I wouldn't call that better myself. It's an opinion, not fact. And I personally wouldn't have wanted to murderer billions of innocent lives to bring back a dead race.

Uh…. you realize they sacrificed themselves voluntarily because the planet was literally dying and falling apart lol. Also cmon, i’m tired of hearing this double standard. We don’t know what the 3rd set of sacrifices would’ve been, and it was to free their loved ones souls. How is it any different from when Ironworks was willing to sacrifice their entire timeline and the billions of people in it just to bring the WoL back and avert the 8uc? Also i mean they dealt with negative emotions. We see this throughout the elpis quest. You’re acting as if they sacrificed people over every little thing. It was an apocalypse that tore the planet apart, it wasn’t “some random thing going wrong.”

[RyuDragnier]

Just really want to disagree with your "factually better world" statement. The Ancient world may have been beautiful, but it was filled with people who had no clue how to deal with negative emotions and dictated life and death on a whim. When something did go wrong, they had zero clue how to live with it and decided it would better to sacrifice millions of innocent lives to try and bring back their perfect paradise instead of learning and growing stronger. They were in danger of stagnating and dying out, because they couldn't move forward, and were always one catastrophe away from self-extinction because they couldn't handle bad feelings. Personally, I wouldn't call that better myself. It's an opinion, not fact. And I personally wouldn't have wanted to murderer billions of innocent lives to bring back a dead race.

Watch it, the Venat haters will now circle around you for blood because she's apparently the anti-christ and how everything would have been better if we had let the ancients/unsundered kill everybody.

[OhNooo]

Kill me Daddy Emet! *swoon*

[Skyborne]

everything would have been better if we had let the ancients/unsundered kill everybody.

(realtalk, the third sacrifice plot point has always been the most wishy-washy vague thing that people can interpret any way they like, almost as if the developers were trying to sow chaos among the story fans, so it has always been silly and pointless to me and how it came up in this generic doomposting thread is funny)