SAM players are quitting

[YukiB]

You don't have a choice in when you use Kaiten.

Yes you do. You have to actively press the button. Yes, it's optimal to use it before iaijutsu, but that doesn't mean you have to.

That's like saying you don't have a choice on when to enter Life of the Dragon on DRG, just because it's optimal to delay it for raid buffs.

You got an illusion of choice. Diverging from an optimal rotation is choosing to do suboptimal dps.

While yes, this would enforce the optimal rotation, you were pretty much in that boat anyway if you do high end content so it would just be giving back what you lost and sticking to their "reduced button bloat" mantra.

Man, I'm getting so good at reading your modus operandi that I'm replying to you before I even see your post!

[Kabooa]

Yes you do. You have to actively press the button. Yes, it's optimal to use it before iaijutsu, but that doesn't mean you have to.

That's like saying you don't have a choice on when to enter Life of the Dragon on DRG, just because it's optimal to delay it for raid buffs.

There's a marked difference in "The dragoon delays it because of the party buff window" and "It's literally wrong to use Kaiten on anything but Iaijutsu and Ogi". When we speak of "Choice" in game design, it's not about whether the player is initiating an action, it's about whether there's a meaningful divergence of outcomes from those actions.

If your only outcome selections are Pass/Fail, it's not a choice, it's a formality.

Reapers have "The choice" of not alternating their powered up weapon skills.
Black mages have "The choice" of only using ice magic.
Healers have "The choice" of never using damage actions.

See how little that actually flies?

[YukiB]

There's a marked difference in "The dragoon delays it because of the party buff window" and "It's literally wrong to use Kaiten on anything but Iaijutsu and Ogi". When we speak of "Choice" in game design, it's not about whether the player is initiating an action, it's about whether there's a meaningful divergence of outcomes from those actions.

If your only outcome selections are Pass/Fail, it's not a choice, it's a formality.

Reapers have "The choice" of not alternating their powered up weapon skills.
Black mages have "The choice" of only using ice magic.
Healers have "The choice" of never using damage actions.

See how little that actually flies?

I see that those are all choices with varying degrees of impact on DPS.

I'm not arguing that players should ever NOT use Kaiten by the way, but it was a skill that required player agency to use, and thus provided some small amount of skill expression and gauge maintenance which is now lacking.

Imagine if they made it so RPR could ONLY alternate their gauge skills. The end result would be the same, but the job would be slightly easier to play and lose a little bit of flavor. Imagine if they removed Blizzard IV from BLM and made the umbral hearts passive. The end result would be the same (actually slightly more potency per GCD) but the job would be slightly easier to play and lose a little bit of flavor. That ability to make decisions, and mistakes, makes jobs more fun.

A few percent if you're not performing which if you're "doing what you want" freestyle dpsing is going to drop you into grey.

So the choice to not use Kaiten is not the sole factor in determining a grey parse, but execution of the whole rotation. Thank you for proving my point.

[FrogBiscuit]

There's a marked difference in "The dragoon delays it because of the party buff window" and "It's literally wrong to use Kaiten on anything but Iaijutsu and Ogi". When we speak of "Choice" in game design, it's not about whether the player is initiating an action, it's about whether there's a meaningful divergence of outcomes from those actions.

If your only outcome selections are Pass/Fail, it's not a choice, it's a formality.

Reapers have "The choice" of not alternating their powered up weapon skills.
Black mages have "The choice" of only using ice magic.
Healers have "The choice" of never using damage actions.

See how little that actually flies?

Its amusing that you are highlighting effectively exactly what YukiB is stating, yet are trying to prove the opposite.

Each of those classes all have "The choice" to improve on how they play and be better at optimizing their damage...

SAM had a chunk of 'that choice' removed.

This isn't stating that the use of kaiten was 'hard'. But it was a conscious choice, just one aspect of the SAM kit that kept the player engaged. It was removed. The pieces of the kit you needed to use effectively has been simplified.

Adding any color of the kaiten effect to Iaijutsu automatically... effectively makes the rotation less engaging.


Are you arguing from the perspective that SAM was just too hard for higher end raiders and needed to be simplified for them, because kaiten use was too demanding?

Hitting your differing moves IS a choice. Otherwise, Why don't we just hit one button that executes everything that needs to go off so the player can simply pay attention to the fight mechanics? Not to mention, outside of Ultimates... any SAM player could get pretty any content done without using kaiten and wouldn't be kicked by any but the most anal of groups. Not saying this would be good practice but simply that the content isn't hard enough to be that strict.

The point of having augment style moves like Kaiten is to add slight complexity to a class, and this does nothing to mention that kaiten importance was far more detailed in that it also connected Sen and Kenki build up, made kenki management actually a thing, visually connected our moves in a pleasing way, and was a direct engagement of the player in creating large hits with a immediate payoff which was a direct psychologically pleasing flow of actions.

[Kabooa]

Its amusing that you are highlighting effectively exactly what YukiB is stating, yet are trying to prove the opposite.

Each of those classes all have "The choice" to improve on how they play and be better at optimizing their damage...

Let me tell you why this logic doesn't work.

Without Kaiten, you still have immense amounts of "Choice" to improve your DPS. You've only lost a sliver.

You have six different base GCD actions you can use. In a boss fight lasting approximately 10 minutes, or 600 seconds, you have, about, 240 slots for GCDs. 270ish with the speed bonus, and every amount in between depending on when you apply and how often you keep up your speed bonus.

So at the basic level, you've already got 270 * 6 or 1620 choices to make. Multiply that by (240 * 6) and that's where you sit without any haste bonus at all. Double that amount if we include damage bonus. Double it once more if we have a run with no combo actions.

Double it again if we have a run with half of the actions used perform a combo bonus.

Double it once more if only the first 120 actions use combo bonuses.

Double it again for the run where you use Kenki. Double it again for the one you don't.

Look at all these optimization choices you can still make. I'm not even a tenth of the way through potential choices you could make and Kaiten isn't even in the a twinkle in your eye.

Oh, lets not forget the run where you hit zero GCDs. Bold strategy, but who am I to argue with choice?

[cjbeagle]

snip

You're right, but all you're pointing out is that almost every action an optimized player takes is a non-choice.

The problem isn't exactly the removal of the non-choice so much as it is the ramifications of that removal.

Not having Kaiten as part of the rotation makes the rotation easier, slower (removed an OGCD from the rotation), and feel worse as a whole.

The bigger problem is that because Kaiten is no longer part of the rotation, kenki management is no longer necessary whatsoever. Sure, it wasn't hard before, but "not hard" is very different than "completely unnecessary".

There's no longer a reason to even know how much kenki you have except in preparation for burst windows - just spam Shinten and you're good. Before at least you had to make sure to have enough for Kaiten while also being mindful to not overcap from Ikishoten when that's coming up.

Kaiten was a non-choice if playing optimally discounting edge-cases, but that non-choice was still a lot better than Shinten spam.

[Kabooa]

Kaiten was a non-choice if playing optimally discounting edge-cases, but that non-choice was still a lot better than Shinten spam.

You see, that's actually the funny part.

I don't really disagree with you. There's some nuance and detail I could argue with you, but that doesn't really pertain to whether or not Kaiten should come back. I've said it elsewhere - This is purely a gamefeel issue. I can easily see them compromising with having Kaiten give the auto-crit, and frankly, that's probably what will happen.

Another potency shift, Kaiten returns, Kaiten just makes the next weaponskill auto-crit.

You are effectively proving yourself wrong in your own posts by your own logic, but are simply dismissing the situation by saying 'kaiten wasn't that big of a deal, you still have differing methods to stumbling through your rotation.'.

The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

They are no more a choice than pushing any GCD in the first place. Literally any GCD being pressed is better than not pressing any. That isn't a choice. That is a pass/fail.

This continues further - It's better to press a combo-starter GCD than literally any GCD at random. That isn't a choice. That is a pass / fail.

This continues further - It is better to complete a full combo than only pressing combo starter GCDs. That isn't a choice. That is a pass / fail.

This continues further - It is better to complete a buffing combo before using a damage combo. That isn't a choice. That is a pass / fail.

Pass / fails are not what we call choices in game design. They are basic knowledge checks that you need only solve once, and after that you already have the answer, and therefore there is no choice in the matter. There is a right answer, and there is a wrong answer.

Kaiten falls under pass/fail. There is a right answer (Sword Draw enhance) and a whole lotta wrong answers (Using it with literally any non-Draw).

So in terms of optimization to improve your damage, Kaiten is already inconsequential, because where you use it is predetermined in almost all cases, and I use "Almost all" because you could make the argument that "I only have 20 Kenki, there's only time for one OGCD slot, and the only GCD I can press is Hakaze, and the boss is about to die / enrage right NOW" and that is...technically correct, and if you want to take that victory, by all means.

And don't take this as me insulting Kaiten. Most things in this game are pass / fail. They provide structure and handrails for players to follow.

I don't hold Life Surge in higher regard than Kaiten, nor Reassemble. I have nothing but apathy towards basically every physical DPS's repertoire of weaponskills, because they almost all fall under the same breadth of use despite their animation differences and their names, and I have nothing but active disdain for basically every weaponskill combo in the game.

[YukiB]

The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

They are choices. Just because it's a mistake to do it doesn't mean it's not a choice. And taking away the ability to make that mistake is simplification.

[cjbeagle]

There's some nuance and detail I could argue with you, but that doesn't really pertain to whether or not Kaiten should come back. I've said it elsewhere - This is purely a gamefeel issue.

I'd be down to debate some nuance - let's hear your thoughts. fwiw I agree that it's almost entirely an issue of feel, though I do maintain that the complete removal of kenki management goes beyond feel.

I have nothing but apathy towards basically every physical DPS's repertoire of weaponskills, because they almost all fall under the same breadth of use despite their animation differences and their names, and I have nothing but active disdain for basically every weaponskill combo in the game.

This is actually my biggest problem with the changes to samurai - DPS is my preferred role and melee specifically over ranged, and samurai was the only melee I really enjoyed. I'm lukewarm at best towards most kits, so trying to replace samurai as my main has been more or less futile.

Out of curiosity, what is your favorite kit? (and why, if you care to elaborate)

[FrogBiscuit]

The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

They are. Simple as that. You seem to be insisting on approaching this issue from the perspective that failing to play your class optimally is not an option... Which isn't realistic at all. Every class has effectively a strict ideal way of playing it. A optimized timing and button order that will be better then any other method, for any fight, and from the perspective you are presenting, none of them have 'options' in how they are played outside of that strict method (despite just two posts ago you were expressing 'Look at all these optimization choices you can still make.' in direct contradiction to what you are posting now).

You arn't really making any sense.

Kaiten falls under pass/fail. There is a right answer (Sword Draw enhance) and a whole lotta wrong answers (Using it with literally any non-Draw).

So in terms of optimization to improve your damage, Kaiten is already inconsequential, because where you use it is predetermined in almost all cases, and I use "Almost all" because you could make the argument that "I only have 20 Kenki, there's only time for one OGCD slot, and the only GCD I can press is Hakaze, and the boss is about to die / enrage right NOW" and that is...technically correct, and if you want to take that victory, by all means.

And then you effectively contradict yourself yet again in recognizing there is a 'right option' in regards to using kaiten, and a "whole lotta wrong answers" (indicating there are numerous ways to use kaiten correctly and the numerous incorrect ways) and in the next sentence illogically state that its inconsequential. The things you are stating don't match up at all. Heck, you even go out of your way to provide a accurate example of a scenario which support what I have been saying, of where you have to make a conscious decision regarding how you execute your rotation, effectively supporting the very position I am trying to express to you.

I am not trying to be obtuse or overly critical of what you are saying... Just that its entirely self defeating. You are elaborating on my very point and in the next sentence denying the very things you just stated simply as it being 'inconsequential'. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.



Yes, every last move in this game is a 'pass / fail' mechanic, with most having countless ways of not being used optimally. That is the very point I am expressing, why I am suggesting kaiten has more purpose then you imply, and considering the different areas of SAM game play it effects (kenki management, sen coordination, as silly as it would be to do - the countless moves that Kaiten is not supposed to be applied to) it most certainly had consequence and with far more engagement and thought required then spamming a move like shinten. The reasons you are giving to explain your perspective with are the very reasons themselves as to why kaiten was not inconsequential, the opposite of what you are claiming. Not only was kaiten not your standard, stand alone isolated move, but the very fact that it existed itself provided the SAM kit more variance then what it contains now. Plain and simple.


I am not trying to be dismissive or insulting of your point of view... But your very reasoning disqualifies what you are trying to prove. From what I can understand from your argument is that you just look at the game in a extremely simplistic light of: 'We all have buttons to press, why does it matter to you which ones you press?" I honestly haven't been able to unravel what you are trying to say from any other angle.