Rescue needs to go away.

[Faafetai]

It's borderline impossible to shirk someone and transfer aggro unless they're also a tank or you've done a very long setup. It has a buildup to be able to do it and there's a warning when your tank is turning their tank stance off for a period of time that it's coming. Rescue you just suddenly hear a sound and take your hands off your keyboard because all control is gone for a couple seconds.

It is not impossible, all you do is hit the mob voke than shirk, it does not take build up they do not even have to turn their stance off just not attack the boss or mobs. I would rather be rescued a million times than shirked by a tank in the middle of a pull and be killed. No thank you, getting pulled for literally two second not even is nothing compared to the trolling done and can be done by little timmy the tank engine as he wipes the party repeatedly, refuses to engage in chat, and you are unable to kick due to loot being rolled on. Rescue is not the problem here.

[ZedxKayn]

It is not impossible, all you do is hit the mob voke than shirk, it does not take build up they do not even have to turn their stance off just not attack the boss or mobs. I would rather be rescued a million times than shirked by a tank in the middle of a pull and be killed. No thank you, getting pulled for literally two second not even is nothing compared to the trolling done and can be done by little timmy the tank engine as he wipes the party repeatedly, refuses to engage in chat, and you are unable to kick due to loot being rolled on. Rescue is not the problem here.

Provoke generates a ton of enemity while shirk only transfers 25% of it, a tank won't lose aggro of something by shirking, that's why during a tank swap you NEED a Provoke but Shirk is optional. And it's very easy to avoid being killed by shirk shenanigans if you pay attention to what the tank is doing... And it's kinda jarring when anybody is standing here doing nothing.

[Jaquan]

Provoke generates a ton of enemity while shirk only transfers 25% of it, a tank won't lose aggro of something by shirking, that's why during a tank swap you NEED a Provoke but Shirk is optional. And it's very easy to avoid being killed by shirk shenanigans if you pay attention to what the tank is doing... And it's kinda jarring when anybody is standing here doing nothing.

You could at least pretend to read what he wrote. He's not talking about Tank using shirk in the middle of fight but literally pulling with single target hir, Shirking and staying down without further attacking the mobs which would make them go after party if they started attacking.

[ZedxKayn]

You could at least pretend to read what he wrote. He's not talking about Tank using shirk in the middle of fight but literally pulling with single target hir, Shirking and staying down without further attacking the mobs which would make them go after party if they started attacking.

I did read and he wrote voke + "in the middle of a pull", which implies already a fair amount of aggro generated.

Oh, I have seen the same people advocating for a decently safe playstyle but being against Rescue.
But feel free to keep ignoring everything else I said because of that.

And my own anecdotal evidence is that the people I know who despise rescue also wouldn't advocate for vercure or clemency outside of downtime or extreme situations. Go generalizations!

[Jaquan]

I did read and he wrote voke + "in the middle of a pull", which implies already a fair amount of aggro generated.



And my own anecdotal evidence is that the people I know who despise rescue also wouldn't advocate for vercure or clemency outside of downtime or extreme situations. Go generalizations!

Point taken. Although I'm not sure how hard would it be to beat 75% of tank's aggro should they decide to forgo maintaining it during the fight. Speaking of provoke as well... I'm pretty sure it doesn't generate actuall aggro rather than just putting you temporarily on top which is why during tank swaps an offtank needs to start slapping the boss like no tomorrow as otherwise it'll start playing with the other members of the party.

[ZedxKayn]

Point taken. Although I'm not sure how hard would it be to beat 75% of tank's aggro should they decide to forgo maintaining it during the fight. Speaking of provoke as well... I'm pretty sure it doesn't generate actuall aggro rather than just putting you temporarily on top which is why during tank swaps an offtank needs to start slapping the boss like no tomorrow as otherwise it'll start playing with the other members of the party.

Provoke used to merely put the user at the top of the list but not anymore, idr the exact number but on top of putting the tank at the top it also generates a crazy amount of enimity. Something you'd have to afk for a while to have a dps/healer steal it from you.

[Jaquan]

Provoke used to merely put the user at the top of the list but not anymore, idr the exact number but on top of putting the tank at the top it also generates a crazy amount of enimity. Something you'd have to afk for a while to have a dps/healer steal it from you.

Oh. Wasn't aware of that. Thank you for clarifying that. Guess I mistakenly found an old guide...

[LeonKeyh]

Provoke used to merely put the user at the top of the list but not anymore, idr the exact number but on top of putting the tank at the top it also generates a crazy amount of enimity. Something you'd have to afk for a while to have a dps/healer steal it from you.

Is it "a crazy amount"? I know that it used to just be Current top +1, but thought it was changed to something akin to 2000 potency (in addition to moving you to the top), which would be 20,000 damage to take back if they just used that. Certainly isn't "nothing", but I just want to understand if that changed.

[Faafetai]

Provoke generates a ton of enemity while shirk only transfers 25% of it, a tank won't lose aggro of something by shirking, that's why during a tank swap you NEED a Provoke but Shirk is optional. And it's very easy to avoid being killed by shirk shenanigans if you pay attention to what the tank is doing... And it's kinda jarring when anybody is standing here doing nothing.

This is indeed the case in a two tank situation, of course this is provided the other tank even has their stance on. To be completely honest they do not even need to shirk to cause any issue, just turning their stance on and off could cause issues.

It is not easy to avoid being shirked. If the tank is turning there stance on and off during the pull. I can replicate this within the game in a test environment. You run in with your stance provoke one enemy you can even aoe, turn stance off for a moment while everyone is attacking the mobs than shirk turn stance on so after the healer and dps die and you cause a wipe they will only see that your tank stance is on, and be unsure what happened. The mobs in many places are larger and if you play a smaller character it is even harder to see if you are being shirked. If you have everyones effects turned on you might not see a shirk amidst casts or mudras. Everything will seem fine until you wonder how you died in that moment. There stance is on right now. So you will than begin to watch after wards. You might, or you might just think the healer might have not healed on time and someone made a simple honest mistake. Does everyone play this game always looking out for attackers? I sure don't, but maybe I should be suspicious of everyone so I can see when a tank is being a child.

Castrum was very popular for this kind of behavior, if you played scholar with constant fairy healing drawing aggro, everyone aoe ing on the move, a simple voke after turning your stance on and off while pulling numerous mobs will allow for a shirk to kill someone. You can make it look like you are aoe ing the mobs without hitting them. This happened frequently when I suppose school let out or something and everyone queued up with their fc to troll people in castrum now they settle for alliance raids.

In two tank situations. I was tanking for the first time within titania. I asked who would be the main tank, the other tank said they would. During the course of the fight they would turn their stance on and off causing a wipe. I was there for my first time, so I was focusing on what the mechanics were not if they tank was keeping their stance on throughout the entire trial. Who is actively thinking that they are going to get a tank that is turning their stance on and off. I got yelled at for not having my stance on when there was clearly in the chat who was main tanking or not, realizing my mistake of trusting someone else to tank, I just tanked it myself because I at least know how to keep my stance on during a fight and pick up ads. It took literally 3 wipes for people to realize what was going on. I just assumed too many people oopsied mechanics because they were and it wasn't helping the situation, but the tanks random shirk and turning stance on and off caused further issues in this instance. I wasn't watching the tank. I was not baby sitting. I didn't even think this was a thing until the new healer mentioned they were doing it. There it was stance on stance off. Why did I trust someone else to tank? My mistake.

No one initially will assume when going into a duty that someone is just going to do something like this. I am not actively always watching the tank when I am playing dps, I am attempting to learn my rotation not watch to see if the tank is going to try to kill me today because it is funny I guess. I am not going into an alliance raid watching every single tank in each alliance to make sure they are doing their job and not being a child and shirking people during it and killing half the alliance because it is 'haha oh so funny. We iz drunk sowwys ooo woooh'

You are thinking mostly if someone is playing properly and aoeing a pack normally yes it a bit hard to pull of of them, unless you just voke one mob than shirk if regen is on you perfect. You don't really even need shirk. The person trying to kill the healer in keeper of the lake and the whm getting aggro sure looked like they were dead after getting shirked.