"Button Bloat"

[RyuuZero]

We hardly ever press guren or shoha 2. There's ZERO reason for them to be their own button. I generally don't like the whole button bloat argument, but I also don't like redundant skills either. Shoha and Senei could easily act like the myriad of other aoe skills in the game where the first target gets the normal potency and then the remaining targets get a reduced potency hit.

Please don't tell me you Single Target Combo on Big Dungeon Pulls.

And your macro comment doesn't really change the argument that if they wanted to deal with bloat they could have combined ishikoten and ogi without taking away kaiten. Reality is they removed kaiten because of scaling reasons as they are clearly going to be making significant changes to stats and what not in 7.0. Sadly they chose samurai as an early experiment for 7.0 changes they are working on.

though they wanted to address the button bloat and took Kaiten away. My Macro addresses the Button Bloat by making you pressing the same button 3times, try my Macro before saying it doesn't matter^^ but funnily I also have Shoha and Senei on a one button Macro xDD I tell you, we get a Single Target Ogi with 7.0 and there is nothing wrong about this

You don’t need single target and AOE variants of these abilities. Especially when Guren already did it right in SB: it was your second strongest ability, and could be used in both a single target scenario and an AOE scenario. Senei is redundant and needless bloat when Guren already did the same thing prior. And this single-target with AOE falloff isn’t a new concept. It’s still a thing on other jobs now.

Okay Senei is redundant for providing the solution to the single target situation while using the same resource as Guren? Great that AoE falloff stuff is a thing on other jobs, then play those other jobs, I like to play Samurai and the removal of Kaiten is what keeps me from enjoying Samurai

Do not recommend combat macros without also addressing the issues they present within combat. Macros do not queue in this game, and you risk losing more damage in your attempt to consolidate, and from macro misfires. They are not and have never been recommended for general combat uses outside of a handful of oGCD utilities. Never for combo consolidation like what you are suggesting.

Do expect me to write an disclaimer on how and when to use macros? that macro wasn't an order, just a suggestion for something we already can do ourselves or do you want to beg the devs for years until they do? funnily enough a Dragoon change of 6.1 is that jump turns into illusion jump, which I had as a macro for years.

[RyuuZero]

When SAM only had Guren, Guren was used for single target and it wasn't a problem in SB.
Sen'ei was introduced and Guren was only used in multi targets. Guren became button bloat.

Okay Guren is redundant for providing the solution to the AoE situation while using the same resource as Senei?? Guren didn't became Button Bloat, it became the AoE Option

If SQEX introduced those buttons as single target, DRG would be suddenly bloated and the AoE versions would be barely pressed.

but SE did that, DRG has a 3tier AoE Combo that buffs the AoE Combo Starter and Single Target Combo Starter making you able to switch the Single Target Rotation and vise versa, but that's Dragoon not Samurai.

I prefer, instead of imagining, working within reality...
"Knowing when to hit the single target vs AE ability" isn't some major tactical knowledge as you're making it out to be and isn't something that is needed. 2 different versions of the same skill are not needed even within your imaginary scenario, they've done this with a ton of other skills already, this isn't a new idea:

Why do you play a Game with Fantasy in the Title?
Welcome to Alexander 4 Savage where there is an add that you have to kill with specific timing also and there might be even more Fights with addphases like that, luckily for A4S is lvl60 so you have Higanbana&Midare and unsynced makes that fight melt anyway but the devs can always bring that mechanic back. Interesting that you list all the Job like they're so similar, do you really want to sit on your resources until the situation is fitting?

This is why they removed Kaiten, they do not know how to play this Job just "Delete Kaiten, buff all the Skills" without thinking of the Ripple Effect that comes to the Gameplay and you guys all come up with those wild and unrelated ideas because the devs stated "button bloat". They effectivily just took away one button and Samurai now sucks as result but seeing all these ideas of merging skills it just was a matter of time until they ruined Samurai. Let's just argee on One Thing: They have to Bring Back Kaiten

[ForteNightshade]

Okay Guren is redundant for providing the solution to the AoE situation while using the same resource as Senei?? Guren didn't became Button Bloat, it became the AoE Option

One of Senei or Guren is button bloat because they are functionally the same ability, albeit one is only used in singlet target scenarios; the other AoE. If Guren were buffed to 800 potency with 60% fall off, it'd accomplish the exact same thing Senei does now. Likewise, if Senei had 60% fall off, it's essentially Guren. Both have no reason to exist beyond the dev team having no idea what new abilities to add and wanting to make a new animation. Pick whichever one you fancy and remove the other. They could even recycle the animation to a new skill down the road.

Welcome to Alexander 4 Savage where there is an add that you have to kill with specific timing also and there might be even more Fights with addphases like that, luckily for A4S is lvl60 so you have Higanbana&Midare and unsynced makes that fight melt anyway but the devs can always bring that mechanic back. Interesting that you list all the Job like they're so similar, do you really want to sit on your resources until the situation is fitting?

Are you talking about Dolls? You never stack them, thus making it entirely irrelevant if you use abilities with fall off damage. There has never been any fight where you'd have to delay oGCDs with fall off long enough for it to matter. Even in TEA you may hold something like Guren for all of a GCD or two. And you'll do that regardless because it's a gain on two targets. This whole scenario you keep insisting upon where there's an add that may explode if SAM didn't have a "choice" between Senei or Guren simply doesn't exist. If it did, Dragoon would be entirely unviable as it literally can't do its rotation with cleaving two targets.

And no, your macro doesn't work for the reasons HyoMin described. Pairing Ikishoten and Ogi in a macro will cause a particularly egregious clip due to macros forcing oGCDs into a flat 2.5s queue they otherwise don't have. This will cause you to bleed damage as you'll constantly clip your GCD. There's a reason nobody uses macros for GCD abilities.

[HyoMinPark]

Do expect me to write an disclaimer on how and when to use macros? that macro wasn't an order, just a suggestion for something we already can do ourselves or do you want to beg the devs for years until they do? funnily enough a Dragoon change of 6.1 is that jump turns into illusion jump, which I had as a macro for years.

Yes. Because you can’t shove a suggestion in someone’s face without also pointing out that utilizing combat macros has its downsides. You should always present the pros and cons of macros when suggesting them. Especially when you insist on doubling down on the suggestion:

though they wanted to address the button bloat and took Kaiten away. My Macro addresses the Button Bloat by making you pressing the same button 3times, try my Macro before saying it doesn't matter^^ but funnily I also have Shoha and Senei on a one button Macro xDD I tell you

I wonder how much damage you’ve lost out on with your poor macros. Or how many times they’ve misfired. More than you probably realize, I’m guessing.

we get a Single Target Ogi with 7.0 and there is nothing wrong about this

Yes there is, because it just adds to the redundancy and bloat problem. You do not need AOE and single target variants of the same skill when you already have AOE cleaves that are also viable in single target.

Okay Senei is redundant for providing the solution to the single target situation while using the same resource as Guren? Great that AoE falloff stuff is a thing on other jobs, then play those other jobs, I like to play Samurai and the removal of Kaiten is what keeps me from enjoying Samurai

Yes, it is redundant. Because Guren in SB already did what Senei does now. There was zero reason to add a second skill that did the same thing except was single-target.

And please with the “go play something else” response. Tired of seeing this non-argument. Come up with something better.

but SE did that, DRG has a 3tier AoE Combo that buffs the AoE Combo Starter and Single Target Combo Starter making you able to switch the Single Target Rotation and vise versa, but that's Dragoon not Samurai.

Okay and SAM already had an AOE rotation akin to DRG’s 3-tier AOE combo. And they also apply the same self buffs now. This is an irrelevant argument because it has nothing to do with the Guren/Senei and Shoha/Shoha II redundancy. Or even the Shinten/Kyuten redundancy.

[Renalt]

There was a way to like...rotate combo action abilities into the same button...hmmm....if only...

*stares with disappointment at his PvP profile since it is a mechanic already in game but they just don't use it*

[ThorneDynasty]

There was a way to like...rotate combo action abilities into the same button...hmmm....if only...

*stares with disappointment at his PvP profile since it is a mechanic already in game but they just don't use it*

PVP only has simple 1-2-3 combos, for something even mildly more complex like DRG it will just be way more annoying to keep track of. And probably just devolve to removal of positionals, Lance Charge or the dot combo and have you infinitely smash 1 for everything like you are a healer.

Button bloat isn't even an issue for almost any job that has a ton of weaponskills... but it definitely is for healers.

[LeonKeyh]

There was a way to like...rotate combo action abilities into the same button...hmmm....if only...

*stares with disappointment at his PvP profile since it is a mechanic already in game but they just don't use it*

Ask healers how much fun using 1 button for DPS is. That's ignoring that it won't really work for SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN, and WAR because of branching combos. You know, some of the classes that have the most bloat.

There are so many other changes that can be made to fix button bloat that improve gameplay.

[Shurrikhan]

Ask healers how much fun using 1 button for DPS is.

Let's not conflate issues.

Would WHM dps be 3x more fun if you had Glare for 270 potency, Glare II for 310, and Glare III for 350 that you must rotate between, locked to their combo?

They'll all have the same animation, to be clear, since you allege the issue is the number of buttons being pressed, not the scarcity of actions.

Oh, and of course, we may need to drop two buttons elsewhere, so go ahead and pick what you want to lose so you can go from Glare to Glare-Combo.

That's ignoring that it won't really work for SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN, and WAR because of branching combos. You know, some of the classes that have the most bloat.

There are so many other changes that can be made to fix button bloat that improve gameplay.

MNK is the only outlier there. Branching combos haven't been an issue for combo consolidation, ever. We've had consolidated combos on branching actions since Stormblood.

NIN gets a button each for Hakke, Throwing Daggers, Armor Crush, and Aeolian Edge, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

DRG gets a button each for Coerthan Tempest, Piercing Talon, TT-VT-FT-F&C-WT, and TT-Db-CT-WT-F&C, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

WAR gets a button each for Mythril Tempest, Tomahawk, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path. And then it'd have its GCD gauge-spenders, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

SAM gets a button each for Oka, Mangetsu, Enpi, Yukikaze, Kasha, and Gekko. And then it'd have its usual auxiliary GCDs, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

It is neither a new nor complex idea.

[Ransu]

Let's not conflate issues.

Would WHM dps be 3x more fun if you had Glare for 270 potency, Glare II for 310, and Glare III for 350 that you must rotate between, locked to their combo?

They'll all have the same animation, to be clear, since you allege the issue is the number of buttons being pressed, not the scarcity of actions.

Oh, and of course, we may need to drop two buttons elsewhere, so go ahead and pick what you want to lose so you can go from Glare to Glare-Combo.


MNK is the only outlier there. Branching combos haven't been an issue for combo consolidation, ever. We've had consolidated combos on branching actions since Stormblood.

NIN gets a button each for Hakke, Throwing Daggers, Armor Crush, and Aeolian Edge, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

DRG gets a button each for Coerthan Tempest, Piercing Talon, TT-VT-FT-F&C-WT, and TT-Db-CT-WT-F&C, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

WAR gets a button each for Mythril Tempest, Tomahawk, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path. And then it'd have its GCD gauge-spenders, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

SAM gets a button each for Oka, Mangetsu, Enpi, Yukikaze, Kasha, and Gekko. And then it'd have its usual auxiliary GCDs, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

It is neither a new nor complex idea.

If I wanted simple 1,2,3 mash fests I'd play tank.