Regarding the reaction to 6.1 SAM changes

[Quor]

I don't have a dog in that race, they could had kept Kaiten in the game until that moment comes.
But Shinten vs Kaiten disparity was always going to limit future actions no matter what.

The whole point behind PPK conversions was how Shinten vs. Kaiten has always been managed. Kaiten provided the biggest boost to GCD damage you could get but it wasn't as much as what you'd get from your big 2 minute oGCD's. So you developed a priority system. If Guren/Senei are coming up, then you use them. If they aren't available, you Kaiten every Iaijutsu. If that isn't needed then you are free to use Shinten, unless you need to use Gyoten or Yaten in the near future at which point you need to make sure you reserve 10 Kenki for that.

Whether or not Shinten is better than Kaiten runs entirely on the relative PPK values between the two abilities. As of ShB and 6.0, Shinten was the Kenki dump while Kaiten had priority if Iaijutsu was coming up. You needed to use Shinten regularly though, to avoid Kenki waste, but you couldn't just spam it because you were always thinking ahead to the next Iaijutsu and needed to ensure you would have enough gas in the tank to buff it. Proper balancing of the Kaiten vs. Shinten potencies granted relevance to both abilities without neutering one or the other like we saw in SB, where Shinten was the preferred spender of Kenki (except for when Higanbana needed to be buffed, you were under raid buffs or Hagakure was on CD and you had 3 Sen).

One of the stated reasons for the removal of Kaiten was the "smooth" the SAM damage curve, lowering the peaks and bringing up the valleys. They could have accomplished this without removing anything simply by reducing the base potencies of Midare and Ogi while boosting the oGCD potencies of Senei and Shinten and maybe even our basic GCD attacks. They could keep Midare and Ogi decently high in terms of damage but not so high that they have such an outsized effect on overall SAM dps. They could compensate for any reduction in big hit damage by filling it in elsewhere, either through direct potency increases, boosting Kenki returned when using Hagakure, altering Kenki gains from our GCD's or something along those lines. Perhaps a "Kenki refund" of some sort, where proper usage of Kaiten while Meikyo is active makes the next Shinten free and deal 25% more damage. That creates kit synergy and incentive to put things in the right order without leaning on mega potency moves for too much total dps. And if that's too complex then you can simply trim the potencies on our big hits and boost the potency of the oGCD's and basic GCD combos like I mentioned above.

In short, there are far more elegant ways that this could have been addressed that wouldn't gut the job, but apparently throwing out some half-baked change for a problem that doesn't yet exist - much less needs solving - was the route the dev team decided to take.

[Ayche]

But please, answer my original question of how then.

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

[Quor]

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

It's not just a "buff." It's resource management too. It's rewarding forethought and planning. As it stands now, you could remove Kenki, keep the CD skills of Senei/Guren/Gyoten/Yaten with their same CD's, give Shinten/Kyuten four shared charges on a 12s CD and....nothing would change. No one would notice that Kenki is gone. The 52-62 experience would be a little less boring since you'd be able to use Shinten more frequently than you would when it was locked to Kenki, but the play at 62+ would be unchanged from how it is now. Kaiten gave value to a lot of things, but most important of those things was Kenki. The gauge itself is now vestigal, effectively becoming the Shinten gauge.

[IckeDerTyp]

Look up core-a-gaming's video on "why we should buff instead of nerf"

I dislike button removal without getting a replacement.

Especially if it's a cool button like that...

Oh well!

[CuragaCura]

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

You're being a single-dimensional facet of a troll or something here. I never said anything about removing Bahamut. Quote my entire post instead of just the last part of it and I might have actually assumed that you actually bothered to read and offer constructive criticism instead of just offering your meaningless opinion.

I never stated that Kaiten was the bolt that locks the Samurai identity. Don't infer extra details out of my statements. Kaiten is/was part of the identity skill that defines Samurai while acting as one of the greater sources of Kenki spending for potency. Using an example for you obviously won't work so I'd rather just tell you straight out that you are literally offering nothing to the original discussion.

So I'll countermand you with this. Bahamut just pads your DPS. You don't need Bahamut to use Wyrmwave automatically. He's just an extra buff or DOT effect or button that you can press for free damage. You should do all your damage with just your summoned pets or just Ruin III all day.

[Ayche]

It's not just a "buff." It's resource management too. It's rewarding forethought and planning. As it stands now, you could remove Kenki, keep the CD skills of Senei/Guren/Gyoten/Yaten with their same CD's, give Shinten/Kyuten four shared charges on a 12s CD and....nothing would change. No one would notice that Kenki is gone. The 52-62 experience would be a little less boring since you'd be able to use Shinten more frequently than you would when it was locked to Kenki, but the play at 62+ would be unchanged from how it is now. Kaiten gave value to a lot of things, but most important of those things was Kenki. The gauge itself is now vestigal, effectively becoming the Shinten gauge.

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you the kenki for Kaiten since it is only 20 points. It is actually sometimes even hard to screw up,

It is correct that if they decided to buckle down and stick to current, even ShB SAM elements forever, it is possible to rearrange them in multiple ways to smooth out the damage. Like I can say that it could work, you could do that. Whether the values look right or feel right would be hard to judge, because would crit fishing Senei feel even worse due to its 2 minute timer or would feel weaker Kaiten+Midare itself feel bad? Like would it be worth it to keep all those actions in a watered down form? I don't know, you could bake in lot of conditional effects everywhere to keep it hard to solve.

[CuragaCura]

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you never for Kaiten since it is only 20 points. It is actually sometimes even hard to screw up,

It is correct that if they decided to buckle down and stick to current, even ShB SAM elements forever, it is possible to rearrange them in multiple ways to smooth out the damage. Like I can say that it could work, you could do that. Whether the values look right or feel right would be hard to judge, because would crit fishing Senei feel even worse due to its 2 minute timer or would feel weaker Kaiten+Midare itself feel bad? Like would it be worth it to keep all those actions in a watered down form? I don't know, you could bake in lot of conditional effects everywhere to keep it hard to solve.

[KoS_Jooken]

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you never for Kaiten since it is only 20 points.

[Ayche]

It was a spelling mistake, hold your horses. This is not twitter.

[Diadem]

SAM main since early-acc Stormblood most of savage tier clear except O12S and I don't do Ultimate.

Do we have to really express why this change is stupid? Do we have again to make a tantrum like we did for Hagakure because it was already this level of stupid?

Do you have at SE just once play a SAM like for thousand(s) of hour? I don't think so otherwise you would know that SAM is just a trashbin without kaiten when you're in leveling and roulette .

Who really think the SAM is difficult? It was difficult at his release and that's all.

-They took Hagakure from us cause people can't do simple math like not spending all of the kenki so you still have kaiten for your Iai resulting in dumbing all the way down the ressource management of SAM.
-They BUFF like never the duration of our Jinpu/Shifu buff cause people can't even push the combo's button in the right order at the right time (with a job where it is your job to collect stickers with combo).
-They added up kenki to all of our combo because people still can't do simple math.
-They took away the real meaning of shoha that was to use meditate to win even more potency/ressource during downtime (Fishing proc was not a cool thing btw)
-Finally they took us Seigan who was a unique tool making 3rd eye something usefull and not a new shinten generator.

SAM mains (please refrain from calling you a main when you can't tell if kaiten was or was not an oGCD you're all embarassing) already made their voices loud enough with the removal of Hagakure who was a core tool to how the Samurai FEEL but eh, everybody's got trashed along the road so we sucked it up.

And now, you did exactly the same as ShB and throwing away an other of our core feeling tool?

SE, If you feel that Samurai is too strong in crit party comp why not telling us? You know why? Cause you know that you ignored community feedback about rampant crit meta since HW. Suck it up and we'll suck it up.

By luck I'm not doing Ultimate Mode so I dont have to force myself to play a job that requires less brainmatter and have less decision making/ressource management than most of moba's character that have only 4 spells. This is laughable.

Tantrum is ending. I'll go back to the game and have fun playing an other job hoping something happens in a good way for SAM.

Sad to see a job where I would put thousands of hour in due to it's relative complexity dropping into the abyss of f2p A-RPG gameplay feeling.

Revert these changes and work on something better like modifying how critical works in the game formula it will be for the better of everyone.