Thread: Regarding the reaction to 6.1 SAM changes

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

Originally Posted by Lyth

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

I have all jobs to 90. It doesn't mean that I play them all at a raid level, so that comment means nothing.

Also, who are you talking to? Nobody mentioned the complexity of the job here.

Personally, I find all the damage and synergy complaints on Sam quite null (the synergy because it's 2 minute buffs). Changing the dps a job does can be done fairly easily in .x1, .x5, .x8 patches and to an extent and to an extent, they have some dps comparison they want out the jobs so if they want sam to get their dps reduced relative to the rest, they will do so. Complaining about it can be valid if this results in the pf hypocrisy where it gets very hard to get in a party like we saw with summoner at 6.0 (granted, for a different stupid reason). Samurai isn't having it that bad and from my understanding people know that making such an argument right now would be an exaggeration.

So that leaves kaiten. And I think that part of the things I saw and read have been on a base close to what Lyth wrote:
Samurai does some of the highest dps and lacks party buffing
Therefore the job is relatively more complex and deserves to be so,
Therefore the removal of kaiten implies removal of the complexity that the job SHOULD have.

My personal gripe is not with Sam exactly but more with bard having been praised for the whole procs on songs simplification (among other things compared to media tour version) and people praising that 6.0 EW design (I never cared about dps or that bard was top of ranged rdps in EW). So without attributing this to everyone here annoyed with the removal of kaiten, it kind of feels like double standards to me.

Originally Posted by Lyth

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

I'm not denying that that argument exists out there. But I think you are referencing a minority of SAM players. A sliver of the populace... Effectively self serving people you would be able to find in any class.

Slightly more popular an excuse (with a little merit admittedly) is that SAM had a little bit more damage then the other DPS classes because it provided no utility to the rest of the group. It was not a utility class. Due to lacking this utility other classes have, SAM's primary focus on damage, was made a little bit higher. I feel like that argument is legitimate, but not something I'd die fighting for.


The key issue about damage in this past patch (at least for me) isn't a issue about in comparison to other classes. The key issue about damage for SAM in this last patch is our normal build up moves in comparison to our finishers. The homogenization of damage across our own moves (with the removal of kaiten) was what hurt by far the most. There is no more real burst anymore. SAM doesn't really have finishers anymore. They are effectively just the last moves of our chains. They certainly don't reflect the power (or feeling of reward) of hitting like an actual finisher.



I believe the OP is just a simple minded troll with a chip on his shoulder, just eager to gloat at others simply for enjoying a game they have been engaged with, likely due to some deep seated personal issues he is unable to recognize in himself...


Your argument however, is just so obscure and while I don't deny a thing, is likely a reference to a pointlessly small portion of the player base. I really hope SE doesn't design directed by a minute population that just happens to be noisy. I don't really think what you are insisting on really had any impact on why the changes took place.

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

Originally Posted by Ayche

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

How about I just remove your Summon Bahamut because adding skills will create an interaction that is not conducive to your rotation? How about I just remove something that enhances your rotation because the interaction is just an overall negative to you because I think pressing an extra button a few too many times is too much for you to handle because I justify the lack of ability with "button bloat"?

Originally Posted by Ayche

Removing Kaiten also allows for different development of Samurai in general.
Introducing any new weaponskills while Kaiten exists risks lot of unintended consequences.
"Oops, the new weaponskill has too much potency, now SAM rotation is just spamming it with Kaiten"

Justifying the removal of a core gameplay element for Samurai with a hypothetical skill we may never get is asinine.

Originally Posted by Roxus

Justifying the removal of a core gameplay element for Samurai with a hypothetical skill we may never get is asinine.

I don't have a dog in that race, they could had kept Kaiten in the game until that moment comes.
But Shinten vs Kaiten disparity was always going to limit future actions no matter what.