Thread: Regarding the reaction to 6.1 SAM changes

Originally Posted by Awkward

It's mostly from people who meta bandwagon honestly, there are plenty of other jobs in much worse shape than SAM ever was who never complained to this alarming degree.

I’ve never once used SAM for EX/Savage , and have made myself perfectly clear how much I give less of a shat about meta and numbers and even still I think the sam changes are horrible.

How disingenuous to paint the whole issue as a “meta bandwagon” issue while jobs are shrinking across the board while people are so dead set on eachother to notice. Get over yourself and open your eyes

Originally Posted by Jirah

I’ve never once used SAM for EX/Savage , and have made myself perfectly clear how much I give less of a shat about meta and numbers and even still I think the sam changes are horrible.

This ^

Prior to 6.1 I mained samurai for 2 simple reasons:
- OGCD variety/frequency.
- Minimal emphasis on tracking cooldowns.

I don't care at all about the meta - what's important to me is that the gameplay be fast, fun, and not demand that I track cooldowns like a hawk - my attention should be on the fight, not my hotbars.

Dragoon is cooldown intensive.
Reaper isn't fast (Enshroud doesn't count).
Monk isn't fast (Greased Lightning doesn't make up for effectively 0 OGCDs).
Ninja is cooldown intensive.
Samurai is no longer fun.

I could switch to ranged physical or a caster, but the list would look similar - the only job that is anywhere close to samurai in terms of fast, fun, and not being cooldown intensive is dancer, which I do enjoy, just not nearly as much as I used to enjoy samurai.

Originally Posted by cjbeagle

This ^

Prior to 6.1 I mained samurai for 2 simple reasons:
- OGCD variety/frequency.
- Minimal emphasis on tracking cooldowns.

I don't care at all about the meta - what's important to me is that the gameplay be fast, fun, and not demand that I track cooldowns like a hawk - my attention should be on the fight, not my hotbars.

Dragoon is cooldown intensive.
Reaper isn't fast (Enshroud doesn't count).
Monk isn't fast (Greased Lightning doesn't make up for effectively 0 OGCDs).
Ninja is cooldown intensive.
Samurai is no longer fun.

I could switch to ranged physical or a caster, but the list would look similar - the only job that is anywhere close to samurai in terms of fast, fun, and not being cooldown intensive is dancer, which I do enjoy, just not nearly as much as I used to enjoy samurai.

This is very well said. Wholeheartedly agreed. +1

I have to admit. It got me back into playing my SAM more. Its been one of my mains since SB. While I miss Kaiten and it's weird getting used to it, changes like the point blank AoEs made the job feel alot more fluid for me.

Main reason I'm here though, is with there being autocrits on most of the main damage spikes, could that mean we might get more damage output benefit from stacking DH?

Originally Posted by Avarant

I have to admit. It got me back into playing my SAM more. Its been one of my mains since SB. While I miss Kaiten and it's weird getting used to it, changes like the point blank AoEs made the job feel alot more fluid for me.

Before the changes when it was a bit more difficult? I spammed dungeons purely because I wanted to not even cause I needed to. Now? It's made so braindead ontop of not having Kaiten that I have not touched a single Dungeon since the update. Tenka Goken change from Cone to Circular plus Kaiten removal made me quit Dungeons all together. I hate our AoE rotation now. A summary made by " cjbeagle " explains it pretty well.

6.0 pre-Fuko: ▲ O ▲ O [Kaiten]▲

6.0 post-Fuko: O O O O [Kaiten]▲

6.1 Kaiten Removal: O O O O O

^ it has become bland, boring, not engaging, requires less positional awareness, animation looks lazy and utterly braindead.

Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Before the changes when it was a bit more difficult? I spammed dungeons purely because I wanted to not even cause I needed to. Now? It's made so braindead ontop of not having Kaiten that I have not touched a single Dungeon since the update. Tenka Goken change from Cone to Circular plus Kaiten removal made me quit Dungeons all together. I hate our AoE rotation now. A summary made by " cjbeagle " explains it pretty well.

6.0 pre-Fuko: ▲ O ▲ O [Kaiten]▲

6.0 post-Fuko: O O O O [Kaiten]▲

6.1 Kaiten Removal: O O O O O

^ it has become bland, boring, not engaging, requires less positional awareness, animation looks lazy and utterly braindead.

Let's not forget that it's extremely weak and you're better off using Hagakure to use kyuten instead unless you have a charge of tsubame-gaeshi, but also the biggest detriment to the change on SAM aoe is that you now have to eat enemy cleaves just to sneeze on the enemy for a paltry amount of damage.

I don't mean to say whoever thought that up is dumb, but I have to point out that an idea like that is dumb and should have had a bit more consideration.

Originally Posted by Lyth

I have a Lv.90 SAM. To reiterate.

Jobs within a given role should be balanced in terms of dps output, utility, etc. The 'complexity' argument will always fall flat because nobody wants to invest time into a job only to discover that it's ineffective at higher skill levels. So when you argue that your 'complex' job should be the unrivaled top dps, the solution is always going to be to make your job less 'complex' in order to ensure dps parity. This really is not rocket science.

I think that if you genuinely enjoyed Samurai's gameplay as it was, then the gameplay should be adjusted accordingly. You're really passionate about Kaiten? Great, let's bring it back.

But the instant that you argue that Kaiten made SAM more 'complex' and that, as a more 'complex' job SAM should be the unrivaled top dps, you're going to get no sympathy from anyone else. We've all invested time into our preferred jobs, so a bit of mutual respect is in order. Everyone wants to be rewarded for their efforts.

I'm not denying that that argument exists out there. But I think you are referencing a minority of SAM players. A sliver of the populace... Effectively self serving people you would be able to find in any class.

Slightly more popular an excuse (with a little merit admittedly) is that SAM had a little bit more damage then the other DPS classes because it provided no utility to the rest of the group. It was not a utility class. Due to lacking this utility other classes have, SAM's primary focus on damage, was made a little bit higher. I feel like that argument is legitimate, but not something I'd die fighting for.


The key issue about damage in this past patch (at least for me) isn't a issue about in comparison to other classes. The key issue about damage for SAM in this last patch is our normal build up moves in comparison to our finishers. The homogenization of damage across our own moves (with the removal of kaiten) was what hurt by far the most. There is no more real burst anymore. SAM doesn't really have finishers anymore. They are effectively just the last moves of our chains. They certainly don't reflect the power (or feeling of reward) of hitting like an actual finisher.



I believe the OP is just a simple minded troll with a chip on his shoulder, just eager to gloat at others simply for enjoying a game they have been engaged with, likely due to some deep seated personal issues he is unable to recognize in himself...


Your argument however, is just so obscure and while I don't deny a thing, is likely a reference to a pointlessly small portion of the player base. I really hope SE doesn't design directed by a minute population that just happens to be noisy. I don't really think what you are insisting on really had any impact on why the changes took place.

Originally Posted by Ayche

It is only the truth. On-demand +50% potency is going to limit any kind of weapon skill development.

You do realize that kaiten was already limited to what moves it could be applied to, don't you?

not to mention that adjusting kaiten, or just disabling it for any new hypothetical move if a problem, would immediately nulify your current argument.

You seem to be making this argument from the position that the solution SE went with, was the only possible solution that could be applied to a future, hypothetical issue.


Do you really support robbing a class of its' enjoyment and identity for just that?

Originally Posted by Ayche

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you the kenki for Kaiten since it is only 20 points. It is actually sometimes even hard to screw up,

It is correct that if they decided to buckle down and stick to current, even ShB SAM elements forever, it is possible to rearrange them in multiple ways to smooth out the damage. Like I can say that it could work, you could do that. Whether the values look right or feel right would be hard to judge, because would crit fishing Senei feel even worse due to its 2 minute timer or would feel weaker Kaiten+Midare itself feel bad? Like would it be worth it to keep all those actions in a watered down form? I don't know, you could bake in lot of conditional effects everywhere to keep it hard to solve.

I don't understand of your ironic, completely self unaware posts...

You start by arguing in the defense of the change based completely off a future hypothetical conflict.
And then you dismiss counter arguments to your position, because the counter arguments are all hypothetical?


What on earth are you even trying to explain in here at this point??

I mean, are you just entirely missing the entire point of the outcry from the SAM player base? The entire point is that we enjoyed our past game play experience and that IF there actually is a issue SE is trying to tackle, that SE does so while keeping the the theme of the class of which was the very reason in the first place we chose to play the class.

Yes, hypothetically some time in the future, SE could make SAM fun to play in a entirely different direction. That isn't the point at all.

The point is we enjoyed how the class was playing, and if a fix actually is needed to it, that it should still be in the theme of the class we came to love...



I mean, you have been so all over the place and contradicting of your very own posts... I don't even know what you are trying to express anymore.


Yes SE has f'd up other classes in the past and has slowly (extremely slowly in some cases) started to make them enjoyable/relevant again. The entirety of the SAM community hope is however, to avoid a change to a entirely different play-style, avoid having our Class be a bench warming class for a entirety of a expansion, and to still have the option of which they originally found available and enjoyable to play, still in the game (as that was what was retaining the interest of many of us in the first place). We may not be able to have an effect on SE's hypocritical and deceptive dev process (considering they made so many claims about listening to their player base) in any way...

But we are invested in the game. We enjoyed our time before 6.1. We now enjoy our time in the game less after. It is simple as that.