Trick Attack

[Manofpassion]

Ninja is not a complex class. It's just stuffing everything into trick. Right now, if your tricks aren't on time, the party dps suffers. With the change, since trick is personal, it's the nin who will suffer. This change will satisfy the ninjas who prioritise their own personal dps, and those who want to be more independent. I think most people play nin to be team players however - the ninja players who want big deeps can just move to literally any other melee dps class. Dragoon, Samurai, Reaper and monk all do the prioritise personal dps thing. Do we really need every single melee dps class to do the same thing, or have the devs decided that if you want a buff based playstyle, you need to play a p ranged.

I feel like the fanbase spreading nin propaganda that its the hardest class in the game or whatever is not doing the class any favours. The devs, when they do decide to actually listen to feedback, probably think nin needs to be simplified. Maybe the class was complex when mudras were ogcd, but we're a pretty simple and honestly I might even say slow job right now, there is no need to make ninja even slower and require less thought. When they made Huton 60 secs instead of 70, I was actually quite happy that they are making huton oh so slightly more difficult to manage. I would say that's another example that the devs have no idea what to do with ninja. They're making some bits harder, and some bits easier. End result is no progress in any direction. Square needs to spend less time and money on these unnecessary changes and try to create some original ninja utility so it can be a "support" melee again. With ninja being less of a support, the answer isn't to strip away its support identity entirely, but to give it back. In combat Peloton, perhaps mug could be used to steal mp and give it to someone else, whatever. These are probably bad suggestions, but I'm not being paid Square Enix bucks to do their job.

[Kolsykol]

I never really hear experienced NIN players at least say that NIN is hard, I think it's usually people who have just '' tried it out '' who think that the Mudras are hard or people who haven't played it and just look at them and think that it's hard to memorize and perform.
Mudras did use to be harder to use too and very prone to screwing up due to server lag they've changed VERY drastically over the years.
They used to be super fast and Raiton wasn't even used most of the time in single-target because of how fast they were and how easily latency would screw it up if I remember correctly it was only a small gain in perfect scenarios with an absolutely perfect connection.
And then they had a lot of utility that required some actual knowledge of the fights on a deeper level than other DPS.

Nowadays tho I don't think that NIN is harder than others and I really don't see people claiming that it is either except for some exceptions who probably don't even know how they play currently.

[Hawuhawuu]

Nin is hard to learn only in specific scenarios. Getting full burst off in the middle of pinax is the only hard part of the tier but once you get it down its easy. Most people find its hard because one wrong button on Ninjitsu ruins your burst.

While the job can be hard at times overall its not that hard.

[aloneatsea]

I posted a more detailed examination of Ninja's utility over the years in the other thread, but the conclusion I came to was that it was not so much that Ninja's utility specifically was being removed -- rather, that the systems Ninja used to support (TP, enmity management, stuns etc) no longer have a place in the current FFXIV. The utility that has remained essentially comes down to Trick Attack -- something that has been in NIN's kit since its very inception in 2.4.

I can understand given how Ninja used to have a much more supportive role that many players wish for that utility to be restored in some which way. However, I personally cannot think of a good way to implement this, as much as I like the concept. Shields and healing are handled by healers, mitigation is spread across all roles in different formats. While you could, in theory, give Ninja some kind of mitigaiton ability, I worry that that would make Ninja far more preferential to bring over other melee DPS in prog. That said, maybe I'm overthinking, given Red Mage exists as it does.

With this in mind, however, it simply screams to me that maintaining Trick Attack as Ninja's unique personal party buff -- in it's current form -- is the most sensible and most Ninja-like way to maintain that utility. Nothing about Mug screams party buff. Trick Attack, however, does. To me, it gives the impression of some kind of dirty trick like throwing sand in the eyes of an opponent, to temporarily weaken them or distract them -- opening up a vulnerability.

It is because of this that I am so firmly against the idea of Trick becoming a personal buff. It is the last of NIN's utility, and a mainstay of its kit. Would Ninja be the same without mudras? I would think not. Trick is just as important.

[Manofpassion]

I would however like to see the devs work on making mudras less clunky. If one was to press ten, then chi, it would be nice if ten chi would not be selectable anymore and greyed out like an ogcd on cooldown. Square's servers are pretty iffy for me, but a minor change like that would be helpful in ensuring my kassatsu isn't wasted on fuma. I'm actually unsure why this change isn't in the game already? Maybe some more experienced ninja players can explain. At any rate, this is a change that would make more sense to be prioritised over whatever is is they are trying to do. Dancers can mess us their dance all the time and not have to wear a bunny. I like mudras a lot, but this is a change that wouldn't erode ninja's identity, and simplify the class, fulfilling square's fetish, so that new players would be willing to give nin a try. They could even sell the bunny mudra as an emote on the cash shop. Seems like an easy win to me.

[kackal_Jackal]

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
...

I understand why you reacted this way, but this was unnecessary. I don't get why you're bragging on the official forums and bringing up logs to bolster yourself. No speedrunner would come in here and do that anyway. And the idea of 'not taking people's ideas seriously if they perform worse'? A player does not need to be amazing log-wise to know what they're talking about.

However, I mostly disagree with the points you made. For the sake of balance and removing the disparity between NIN players, the proposal is deleting NIN's unique staple and forcing it on the 2m like everyone else is just a sleeper. MNK and DRG are just alternate versions of the same job, rotation and buff type/% aside. Will it make balance easier on SE's behalf? Sure, I suppose. Doesn't mean this change is any good.

NIN's rotation is unlikely to change very much, but a lot of jobs find it very fun to play around Trick Attack or have it on their radar. You can see the difference between a good DRK and a bad DRK solely based how well they can work around Trick, same goes for SAMS, DNCs, RPRs... that have that option to do so, but otherwise it won't naturally happen. You see it as a restriction, others find it fun and rewarding.

Also are you suggesting a NIN's lower personal contributes less into buffs? A job that has one of the highest 2m bursts and is respectable every minute? The job is incredible for buffs. aDPS is a very flawed metric though if you don't strip down the comp first.

Even so, what class you decide to bring to prog does not matter when savage content is clearable on any job outside maybe week 1 if the potency tuning is just terrible. NINs can clear the content fine without the need for players to "plan and optimize". Especially given their excellent disengage ability and simple enough filler that makes mechanical execution simple, something that other melee may just not have during prog. Week 1 & 2 prog groups have brought NIN in the past and had no issues, despite the scaling. Early PF can clear just fine with a NIN. With any job in that matter. If you can't clear the week 2 dps check and you're on NIN, I think you have other issues unrelated to Trick Attack (:

That is just the nature of buff jobs and unless we want carbon copies of the same job for "balance", some jobs do better in certain situations than others. Having a unique staple means a job has both weaknesses and strengths, and if you want jobs to be viable in every situation, we might as well be all playing the same job! Because that's what direction we're heading in and honestly it's rather boring.

And shouldn't this argument apply to tether and litany as well, both buffs are just slightly behind Trick's total utility? DRG also relies on its party members, both to not bring guaranteed crit and for a good partner to utilize tether.

[Akashii]

Personally, I do not like the announced changes to Trick Attack and Mug. Trick Attack has been, since the beginning, a keystone of Ninja's job identity. Being so identifiable to Ninja that the term "Trick Attack Bot" is a colloquial term used to reference Ninja. Mug on the other hand is not as identifiable to Ninja but is now on its way to taking what made Trick Attack special, while being less frequent to use. Trick Attack should remain the party buff that it has always been, just increase the cooldown to 120s, and make Mug a 60s cooldown with an added personal buff, and cut the Ninki gain in half. This retains job and skill identity.

Job identity should not be sacrificed for homogeny, especially when the job identity can still be preserved.

[Theihe]

I understand why you reacted this way, but this was unnecessary. I don't get why you're bragging on the official forums and bringing up logs to bolster yourself. No speedrunner would come in here and do that anyway. And the idea of 'not taking people's ideas seriously if they perform worse'? A player does not need to be amazing log-wise to know what they're talking about.

However, I mostly disagree with the points you made. For the sake of balance and removing the disparity between NIN players, the proposal is deleting NIN's unique staple and forcing it on the 2m like everyone else is just a sleeper. MNK and DRG are just alternate versions of the same job, rotation and buff type/% aside. Will it make balance easier on SE's behalf? Sure, I suppose. Doesn't mean this change is any good.

NIN's rotation is unlikely to change very much, but a lot of jobs find it very fun to play around Trick Attack or have it on their radar. You can see the difference between a good DRK and a bad DRK solely based how well they can work around Trick, same goes for SAMS, DNCs, RPRs... that have that option to do so, but otherwise it won't naturally happen. You see it as a restriction, others find it fun and rewarding.

Also are you suggesting a NIN's lower personal contributes less into buffs? A job that has one of the highest 2m bursts and is respectable every minute? The job is incredible for buffs. aDPS is a very flawed metric though if you don't strip down the comp first.

Even so, what class you decide to bring to prog does not matter when savage content is clearable on any job outside maybe week 1 if the potency tuning is just terrible. NINs can clear the content fine without the need for players to "plan and optimize". Especially given their excellent disengage ability and simple enough filler that makes mechanical execution simple, something that other melee may just not have during prog. Week 1 & 2 prog groups have brought NIN in the past and had no issues, despite the scaling. Early PF can clear just fine with a NIN. With any job in that matter. If you can't clear the week 2 dps check and you're on NIN, I think you have other issues unrelated to Trick Attack (:

That is just the nature of buff jobs and unless we want carbon copies of the same job for "balance", some jobs do better in certain situations than others. Having a unique staple means a job has both weaknesses and strengths, and if you want jobs to be viable in every situation, we might as well be all playing the same job! Because that's what direction we're heading in and honestly it's rather boring.

And shouldn't this argument apply to tether and litany as well, both buffs are just slightly behind Trick's total utility? DRG also relies on its party members, both to not bring guaranteed crit and for a good partner to utilize tether.

My response was a rebuttal of claims made about me. I can see why it would read as pretentious, and although it could probably have been written better, If someone says I do not care about X Y Z, I should be in the right to say such a claim against me is false.

No. What I said was not "I do not care about your opinion if you parse green" it was "if you don't even play the job you opinion means less on this subject to me".

You are mistaken.
I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

It is relevant that people saying "this change is bad" doesn't actively play the job. A lot of the comments are from DPS saying "oh I like putting abilities under trick", which, while being wholesome, isn't relevant to if this change is better for the NIN players themselves.

Yeah this I see, in my opinion it's not the biggest deal. It's also not inherently that some players "work around trick" is that our openers are created with Trick in mind- so as long as they dont drift they end up with stuff under TA. So it certainly is not always (sometimes, but most of the case, definitely not) people optimizing- just playing their job correctly. It's worth keeping in mind that a majority of statics do not heavily optimize. And having one job overly reliant on people doing so when other jobs are not is a reasonable thing to adress from a development standpoint.

No, where did I claim this?
If you mean in the long post I qouted on the first page, it has sections cut out and is part of a larger discussion regarding how FFLOGS can be used to indicate job health- but isnt necessarily a good indicator for the actual numbers.
I'm not really sure why aDPS is mentioned here. I feel like I'm missing context for this entire section.

Cute smiley, very passive agressive and charming, still not relevant to the claim I was originally making.
I said "The first, and only real hurdle, is beating the DPS check once, at which point it gets continously easier. If one job has a rougher time meeting that check because "they scale harder later" then they, and their team, is arbitrarily taxed."
The argument being "by having one job that is such an outlier in terms of the balancing - while all other DPS have been shoehorned into it this 2 min window- a change was expected".

I don't know if this section is an argument against me, but I agree to some extent. I can see why they're (the devs) taking the easy way out, and for me personally I am looking forward to the change. The devs have absolutely no clue what to do about TA, or a ton of other jobs in the game at the moment, and just having them put trick on 2 min (after repeatedly getting nerfed due to being way too strong) is a huge relief over the other options we could've gotten.
I'll just throw it out there that I don't find NIN's TA being this whole end all be all of it's kit as if it's the only thing making NIN into NIN. I think it lost it identity already with emnity management going out the window, debuffs not needed to be kept up, and so on. Because really TA isn't support, it's just roundabout damage. Mantra, Feint, Arcane crest and other such abilities are the real "support" jobs- NIN hasn't been a real support for years at this point.

I want to stress that it's not an "argument", it is an "assumption". I'm guessing they will just move everything (or nearly) onto a 2 min rotation with just about the same value because trying to juggle 20 raidbuffs is impossible. Especially when you try to scale it up.
So not an argument, I'm mainly guessing what their reasoning is.

[AlunKha]

No. What I said was not "I do not care about your opinion if you parse green" it was "if you don't even play the job you opinion means less on this subject to me".

I didn't ask. I posted this thread as feedback for the devs. I really don't care for how you hijacked this thread to boost your ego, especially since you brought FFlogs data into this.

[Theihe]

I didn't ask. I posted this thread as feedback for the devs. I really don't care for how you hijacked this thread to boost your ego, especially since you brought FFlogs data into this.

You posted on a public forum, having people post their opposition to your opinion is expected.
I'm not here to "boost my ego", I don't need any such thing. And to claim I've "highjacked" this thread is laughable