Trick Attack

[rewd]

I am honestly stumped by the negative feelings the community has towards this TA change, because I see nothing but positives. I feel it's an amazing change, and I literally couldn't be happier unless they also made Kassatsu guarantee a crit.

I don't care NIN scales hard late tier. If you beat the DPS check then that's it. You get more gear making the DPS check more and more arbitrary. The fact that TA scales hard is just a toss-up. If you could already beat the DPS check before you scale hard then what's the point of doing more DPS?

I am excited to have my job feel strong, always, independently of if my team decided to eat chalk during raid.

You only care about clearing, other people enjoy doing speed kills.

You don't care about optimizing, other people do. Some people even like the thought of adapting and adjusting to an unconvential timer that spices things up a bit in an otherwise extremely scripted and predicatable game.

Different people have different tastes and inclinations and all of them are valid. For a game that prides itself in letting you play every job on the same character, such widespread homogenization is extremely tone-deaf.

You want a pet job? Nah.
You'd like a healer that requires more than one (1) brain cell with engaging downtime? Think of the casuals.
What about a class with meaningful resource management? Are you even listening to yourself?! Management implies failure and I'm literally shaking at the thought of it. tw: failure.
A busy job, maybe? How am I supposed to watch Netflix, then? Thank God 6.2 will fix DRG and AST being too busy.

And you wonder why people aren't happy about Riddle of Trick and Brothermug?

[Theihe]

You only care about clearing, other people enjoy doing speed kills.

You don't care about optimizing, other people do. Some people even like the thought of adapting and adjusting to an unconvential timer that spices things up a bit in an otherwise extremely scripted and predicatable game.

Different people have different tastes and inclinations and all of them are valid. For a game that prides itself in letting you play every job on the same character, such widespread homogenization is extremely tone-deaf.

You want a pet job? Nah.
You'd like a healer that requires more than one (1) brain cell with engaging downtime? Think of the casuals.
What about a class with meaningful resource management? Are you even listening to yourself?! Management implies failure and I'm literally shaking at the thought of it. tw: failure.
A busy job, maybe? How am I supposed to watch Netflix, then? Thank God 6.2 will fix DRG and AST being too busy.

And you wonder why people aren't happy about Riddle of Trick and Brothermug?

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
I cleared TEA on NIN back in ShB when the content was actually hard and required optimization.
My logs are public.
Do not be condecending.

You can still optimize while not having your job be gimped early in the tier. This changes nothing about NIN at all. You still use TA every minute. You just get a new buff you need to keep track off. If anything this ups the skill ceiling of the job, while bringing up the base damage.


I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

Patchnotes aren't even out and people are acting like they got their favorite toy away from them.

Being the lowest DPS in your category early tier, being compensated by "oh but for speedkills you're great!" isn't healthy. Speedkills are nieche enough as is, and isn't relevant until everyone has their BiS. Or you know, just bring MNK who functions well early tier, aswell as later on.

EDIT:
This isn't a change made to "dumb down" NIN- it's a balancing patch to bring them in line with other jobs in terms of how they scale.
The devs have decided to put everything on a 2 min buff rotation. We can complain all we want about that specifically, but that doesn't change the fact that, well, we're all just bursting at 2 min now. Bringing NIN in line was expected.

[rewd]

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
I cleared TEA on NIN back in ShB when the content was actually hard and required optimization.
My logs are public.
Do not be condecending.

You can still optimize while not having your job be gimped early in the tier. This changes nothing about NIN at all. You still use TA every minute. You just get a new buff you need to keep track off. If anything this ups the skill ceiling of the job, while bringing up the base damage.


I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which most seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

Patchnotes aren't even out and people are acting like they got their favorite toy away from them.

Being the lowest DPS in your category early tier, being compensated by "oh but for speedkills you're great!" isn't healthy. Speedkills are nieche enough as is, and isn't relevant until everyone has their BiS. Or you know, just bring MNK who functions well early tier, aswell as later on.

EDIT:
This isn't a change made to "dumb down" NIN- it's a balancing patch to bring them in line with other jobs in terms of how they scale.
The devs have decided to put everything on a 2 min buff rotation. We can complain all we want about that specifically, but that doesn't change the fact that, well, we're all just bursting at 2 min now. Bringing NIN in line was expected.

I'm not mistaken, you don't express yourself properly. If you do speedruns, then you shouldn't ask yourself what's the point of doing more DPS once you get the clear, otherwise getting a clear represents the end of your gameplay (which as I have already say, it's valid).

I'm glad you perform better than most, it's still not relevant to the discussion. And also no one said this is "dumbing down" the job. I'm apparently condescending but you say that you don't take people's criticism unless they are XY good and you think that's normal. Good to know.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. Let's wait until patch notes (that won't have anything in it that will change minds). Next, we will wait until 6.2. Then 6.3 Then, *checks note* we will wait until the new expansion. Then the Media Tour, then...

Following your logic, they should also remove cards. You play one at odd minutes. This isn't 120s, so it needs to go. Moreover, AST depends on other players, so cards are a huge no-no. There, we also reduced how busy AST feels for everyone that doesn't like it. You like how busy it felt? Uh, idk, you'll find something else.

[Theihe]

I'm not mistaken, you don't express yourself properly. If you do speedruns, then you shouldn't ask yourself what's the point of doing more DPS once you get the clear, otherwise getting a clear represents the end of your gameplay (which as I have already say, it's valid).

I'm glad you perform better than most, it's still not relevant to the discussion. And also no one said this is "dumbing down" the job. I'm apparently condescending but you say that you don't take people's criticism unless they are XY good and you think that's normal. Good to know.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. Let's wait until patch notes (that won't have anything in it that will change minds). Next, we will wait until 6.2. Then 6.3 Then, *checks note* we will wait until the new expansion. Then the Media Tour, then...

Following your logic, they should also remove cards. You play one at odd minutes. This isn't 120s, so it needs to go. Moreover, AST depends on other players, so cards are a huge no-no. There, we also reduced how busy AST feels for everyone that doesn't like it. You like how busy it felt? Uh, idk, you'll find something else.

You are missing my point. The reality is that once you beat the DPS check there isn't actually any reason to do more DPS. The first, and only real hurdle, is beating the DPS check once, at which point it gets continously easier.
If one job has a rougher time meeting that check because "they scale harder later" then they, and their team, is arbitrarily taxed.
Speedkills is a player generated challenge which fills no function outside of filling time between patches.

It is relevant that people saying "this change is bad" doesn't actively play the job. A lot of the comments are from DPS saying "oh I like putting abilities under trick", which, while being wholesome, isn't relevant to if this change is better for the NIN players themselves.

We should wait until the patchnotes, and they will give us proper potency changes alongside them. People jump the gun so hard without getting the full picture. Don't strawman my argument.

This isn't my argument. It's disingenuous for you to imply such.

[Equitable_Remedy]

I know that this is the internet and that the norm is to freak out before actually knowing what we're freaking out about, but might it make sense to actually wait for patch notes and try out the new build before definitively declaring that the sky is falling?

I'm old enough to remember when forums/Reddit/Balance declared that NIN was dead because of Raiju combo. I'm also old enough to remember when forums/Reddit/Balance declared that NIN was dead because of not Raiju combo. I'm also old enough to remember (because it's right now) when forums/Reddit/Balance declared that NIN was dead because of Mug.

Maybe take a breath, wait until we have patch notes, and then wait a little longer to actually play the game before collectively freaking out.

[dadong]

I personally really dislike the change, Trick being on a 1 min window is why alot of statics bring ninja's and not only just for clearing but also to add some variety to their gameplay by allowing them to dump their resources at 1 min mark. It was also integral to the identity as ninja.

Their idea was to limit the changes on the rotation as much as possible while making the nin buff 2 mins, but it's likely it won't play out that way unless they make mug a really awkward skill, like giving you ninki and raid buff. Ninja will be really awkward to play for a while, and I woulda prefered if they had actual balls to make trick 2 mins so we can use our ninjitsu in-between how we like. I imagine there's gonna be some odd timing forced downtime in dsw.

Lastly depending on the balance ninja will just end up being a worse version of monk in every single way. Ninjas has worse personal mit, no mantra, and probably will always have lower rdps by design compaired to monk. So I imagine most statics given the choice will always take monk over ninja if both players are good.

[Theihe]

I personally really dislike the change, Trick being on a 1 min window is why alot of statics bring ninja's and not only just for clearing but also to add some variety to their gameplay by allowing them to dump their resources at 1 min mark. It was also integral to the identity as ninja.

Statics with no NIN were never forced to do this. Statics with NIN were forced to do this.
You mention how you'd like to be able to use your mudras as you please in between the two minute window- well- that restrictiveness is what NIN forcefully imposes on groups that bring them.
If you want to dump your resource at the 1 min mark keep doing so. Trick being personal has no real impact on anyone. It is the best possible scenario this "make raidbuffs align at 2 min" mentality could've brought NIN. We get to keep the buff, making our burst windows stay consistent, while no longer gimping our personal output.

Their idea was to limit the changes on the rotation as much as possible while making the nin buff 2 mins, but it's likely it won't play out that way unless they make mug a really awkward skill, like giving you ninki and raid buff. Ninja will be really awkward to play for a while, and I woulda prefered if they had actual balls to make trick 2 mins so we can use our ninjitsu in-between how we like. I imagine there's gonna be some odd timing forced downtime in dsw.

Why would Mug become awkward? It's possible Mug just gets a rework entierly and no longer grants Ninki too, we don't know yet. And even if it still gives Ninki just ensure you go into your burst window with no more than 60 Ninki.
Every rework/patch makes jobs a bit awkward to play for a while, growing pains will pass.
If our raidbuff is 120 sec the downtime will just be the same as for everyone else. If downtime corresponds with 60 sec windows the drift will still apply to every single tank, and some DPS, which in turn will create a universal consistent delay of 2 min windows.

Lastly depending on the balance ninja will just end up being a worse version of monk in every single way. Ninjas has worse personal mit, no mantra, and probably will always have lower rdps by design compaired to monk. So I imagine most statics given the choice will always take monk over ninja if both players are good.

Or you know, possibly, it will be on par with MNK. We have no clue at this point, and can't do much except wait for the patch.

All I know for a fact is that I will revel in the fact that my job is getting better personal contribrution right in time for DS release, cause when doing that on release "waiting til my job scales well later into the patches" isn't a viable option.

I know that this is the internet and that the norm is to freak out before actually knowing what we're freaking out about, but might it make sense to actually wait for patch notes and try out the new build before definitively declaring that the sky is falling?

This ^

[Manofpassion]

I have no doubt nin will still be viable, and the game will be balanced. Whether the class will still be fun and satisfy most ninja players' idea of class identity I have doubts. This change won't be the death of ninja, but it will likely make a lot of ninja players dissatisfied with this seemingly unwarranted change. From 6 gapclosers in a row to this, I think its fair to say the devs simply don't know why ninja players even like the class.

[dadong]

Statics with no NIN were never forced to do this. Statics with NIN were forced to do this.
You mention how you'd like to be able to use your mudras as you please in between the two minute window- well- that restrictiveness is what NIN forcefully imposes on groups that bring them.
If you want to dump your resource at the 1 min mark keep doing so. Trick being personal has no real impact on anyone. It is the best possible scenario this "make raidbuffs align at 2 min" mentality could've brought NIN. We get to keep the buff, making our burst windows stay consistent, while no longer gimping our personal output.

It's true that having a ninja imposs a strict 1min dump, but a static wouldn't bring a ninja if they didn't want that. Perhaps people even enjoy lining it up and without a 1 min raid buff there's no reason to do so at 1 min mark unless they have a 1 min personal and would be stupid to dump at 1 min without personal CD. The change remove that option entirely from the table. I mentioned that I would like to use mudras any time I want between the 2 min window, that would have been a fair trade for becoming a 2 min job, whereas the change would keep the restrictive ninjutsu usage while removing the option for groups that like having a reason for a 1 min dump entirely.

Why would Mug become awkward? It's possible Mug just gets a rework entierly and no longer grants Ninki too, we don't know yet. And even if it still gives Ninki just ensure you go into your burst window with no more than 60 Ninki.
Every rework/patch makes jobs a bit awkward to play for a while, growing pains will pass.
If our raidbuff is 120 sec the downtime will just be the same as for everyone else. If downtime corresponds with 60 sec windows the drift will still apply to every single tank, and some DPS, which in turn will create a universal consistent delay of 2 min windows.

The entire goal of moving the raid buff to mug is to ensure that the rotation doesn't stray to far from what it currently is. If they removed the ninki gen from mug chances are the whole rotation of ninja will have to be reworked in which case why make make that change in the first place. They could easily have made trick 2 mins and mug 1 min ( with personal dps increase) and it would have not altered the ninja rotation my much. Having mug also give ninki would make the job more stressful because now you have to keep ninki below 60 going into the mug window, going against the design goal of endwalker to appeal to a casual player base.

[dadong]

Or you know, possibly, it will be on par with MNK. We have no clue at this point, and can't do much except wait for the patch.

All I know for a fact is that I will revel in the fact that my job is getting better personal contribrution right in time for DS release, cause when doing that on release "waiting til my job scales well later into the patches" isn't a viable option.

Even if the ninja did the same dps as monk they would still fall short in utility. Making them a worse choice to bring to an ultimate. Not to mention that all ninjas will be relearning their rotation if there's any ninjas left in 6.1.

And who knows what the increased personal contrabution is, we don't know the numbers right now it could be high or it could be low. It could be that they will reduce potencies on ninjas skills to compensate for trick being a personal buff. No one knows at the moment. All I know is that if the ninja has the same dps as the monk it falls short in every single way.