Trick Attack

[Manofpassion]

At the end of the day, bringing up how good and great and optimal you are as ninja doesn't matter. Square doesn't care about that kind of audience lmao. Square only really pays attention to the casual audience. Me, and I think some other people in this thread, are complaining so square can know that this change not only annoys some high-end raiders, but also medicore casuals like me. Not that they will read these threads anyway. Boasting about how you're in the top 1% of ninja players in uwu or whatever your feats are isn't gonna change anyone's mind. While I can't speak for all casuals, gutting trick but making us do like 0.5% more damage or whatever the changes will be is not worth it. No one is gonna play nin just because of that small buff, and a lot of people who play Ninja will be alienated by this change.

I do find it funny that one of your arguments is that most statics don't optimise trick. Seems like a skill issue to me. Learn to optimise or don't, once you have higher ilevel dps checks will get easier anyway, so I doubt it matters in the long run. The answer to people not optimising trick isn't to remove trick lmao. World first raiders are gonna optimise trick, that is good for them. Casuals, like me, who clear much later will have higher ilevel, and just want the clear instead of obsessing over logs. This change helps no one.

[Theihe]

At the end of the day, bringing up how good and great and optimal you are as ninja doesn't matter. Square doesn't care about that kind of audience lmao. Square only really pays attention to the casual audience. Me, and I think some other people in this thread, are complaining so square can know that this change not only annoys some high-end raiders, but also medicore casuals like me. Not that they will read these threads anyway. Boasting about how you're in the top 1% of ninja players in uwu isn't gonna change anyone's mind. While I can't speak for all casuals, gutting trick but making us do like 0.5% more damage or whatever the changes will be is not worth it. No one is gonna play nin just because of that small buff, and a lot of people who play Ninja will be alienated by this change.

I do find it funny that one of your arguments is that most statics don't optimise trick. Seems like a skill issue to me. Learn to optimise or don't, once you have higher ilevel dps checks will get easier anyway, so I doubt it matters in the long run. The answer to people not optimising trick isn't to remove trick lmao. World first raiders are gonna optimise trick, that is good for them. Casuals, like me, who clear much later will have higher ilevel, and just want the clear instead of obsessing over logs. This change helps no one.

Well for the casual audience this change is good. It puts less emphasis on heavily optimizing group synergy, making it more PF friendly.

I'm not a "top 1%" player, and certainly not in uwu.
I also want to point out that I was not the first person in this thread to bring up "speedrunning and optimization". It was the individual responding to me- claiming that I shouldn't have a say "because I don't do such things" who brought it up in the first place.

But if someone do not play a job, why should I be forced to agree to their opinion? I am not, and shouldn't be.
I do not mean to be condecending, but I want my job to feel good, viable, strong, PFable- for me. I want my job to feel like I can throw myself into a PF KFF party where people have garbo gear, unoptimized rotations, slight drift, and whatever- without feeling like "oh man the other people in my group are performing as such a sub-par level that I'm almost griefing them by not playing SAM/MNK".

My argument is not that mosts statics don't optimize trick. My argument is exactly what you said - that once you kill/get gear/ the dps check becomes easier, so having one job being the outlier of scaling poorly early tier before such gear is probably something they are now looking into adjusting. Do not paint my argument as something it is not simply because you have decided that "I am the opposition" and you must disagree with me.

Trick isn't removed. We get to keep trick making things consistent for the NIN player themselves- and we get another raidbuff on 2 min filling the same purpose as trick does now. But trick in and of itself isn't "removed", it just changes the functionality for players other than the nin.
And on that note- we can't actually know for sure because we don't have the patchnotes.

World first raiders optimize everything. This doesn't inherently change anything for them outside of the fact that instead of having to optimize every 60 sec (if they have a nin) they focus on the 2 min window, no matter if they have a NIN or not.
For "casuals" this changes nothing realistically. It actually makes it more casual friendly.

My argument is that people need to calm down until we actually see what kind of changes will be happening. But from the very little we know so far, this doesn't seem to have too huge implications. The only thing being that Raidbuff/Mug alignment might be scuffed- but even that we can't know for sure.
This change with Trick was sort of expected when they brought everything into a 60 sec cycle, and realized Trick was far too powerful further into scaling.
I am (with caution) hopeful that NIN will be brought up to the same slot at MNK- good aDPS, good rDPS, scaling at the same rate as most of the other melees. And that isn't something I can complain about. If making trick personal and giving us another raidbuff is the way they have found to achieve this then I will trust that things will work out.

[Aravell]

Personally, I don't think 'casual' or 'hardcore' is a distinction that is needed in a thread like this, I think we can all agree that removing the only remaining 60s party buff from the game will result in a little bit of boredom for us all, especially considering most jobs have either a mini burst phase every minute that they can put under Trick Attack(GNB/MNK) or they can stock and burn resources under Trick Attack(DNC/DRK).

The original purpose of this thread was meant to express that playing around a 60s timer is fun for most of us who like that kind of thing, we are not advocating for NIN to be weak or anything of the sort, we just want to not have our only remaining little bit of fun outside of the 2 minute window be stripped away. This is not a "NIN main vs Non-NIN players" situation, please do not make it such.

[kackal_Jackal]

You must also consider that NIN's lower aDPS also affects how other job's buffs scale.

It was in reference to this comment. Unless you had an entirely different meaning, it didn't really come off that way.

Still not convinced that NIN is making clearing content the first time any harder. You'll get less out of Trick, but you're also getting less out of every other buff, like Astro cards which seem to be in a similar boat.

DRG and MNK going from a 90s job to a 120s job made sense - as 90s comps in SHB were not great compared to the alternative. Synergy back then was awful. You can still clear content all considering though. A 60s job that already aligns every 120s being changed doesn't really make sense. I get that you're trying to figure out SE's reasoning for the changes, but it seems more like you were making an argument about why NIN's change was justified / is for the best. I'm sure there were alternatives to solving this without homogenizing all the melee together.

NIN does perform worse with certain jobs, but it also performs much better with others. But if you take a NIN with those poor jobs then that's on the player or team. Similar to if you took a PLD + WAR into the group as a DRG or SCH. You will do less, you are taxing yourself. This isn't any different. Or if you brought your NIN into PF and nobody played into Trick - that's a skill issue, not a flaw with Trick Attack having an 'unconventional' timing. They're in Savage content, I would at least expect some effort if they want to clear.

Having strengths and weaknesses is a good thing, and I don't agree all jobs should be viable for every situation. Else all jobs are homogenized and if one job does the same thing as every other job + another thing, then it becomes the obvious winner. That's a problem. We're heading in a direction where we have less intricacies/nuances that removes flavor from the game that would otherwise make it interesting. People reacting to these changes aren't in the wrong, this has been an ongoing trend since SHB when job design has been gradually simplified.

If this truly is SE's reasoning, they should reconsider how crit buffs are calculated with the new SAM changes that will undoubtedly hurt DNC/BRD/SCH, or rework a job like PLD that does significantly less into buffs than the other tanks. This change with the addition of the push for guaranteed crit doesn't really line up. Nor do I think the NIN player-base wanted or asked for this.

[Manofpassion]

Removing the 60 secs timer will indeed be quite boring. While the trick change won't affect the ninja's gameplay, just the nin's personal enjoyment and the ability to have fun, people seem to keep forgetting ffxiv is a team game. If a class can provide an opportunity for other team members to burn resources at one minute timers and make their one minute bursts less boring, that is something to be encouraged. It might not be “utility”, but it is something unique that only ninja can do, and it enhances the enjoyment of both the nin and the other party members. Making other party members working around one job isn't a new concept. While I am no black mage expert, I have been told working around black mage's inability to move for certain mechanics is useful for those who want to optimise and help their black mage. Working around nin's one minute buff seems a lot easier than black mage's entire gameplay. Coincidentally, yoshida mains black mage. No correlation here.

I can also safely say that I do not wish for nin to be brought up to the same slot as monk. If I wanted to play monk, I will, quite shockingly, play monk. I believe someone here called new nin riddle of trick and brother mug - I must say I agree. To me it seems like those who agree with square's changes just want to play another class. Im not sure what's stopping them truth be told. If you are griefing by not playing sam/monk, play sam/monk, it's just that easy. If you are playing e.honda in street fighter and are complaining about why you don't play like a shoto, just play ryu, or ken or sakura or Akuma. Why i myself and other nins won't just play another clas is simple. There is no other melee dps with a buff based playstyle. They remove this, and we either have to play the 3 melee dps clones, or dancer. I do hope the devs aren't balancing the game around pf of all things. As a pretty garbage player I can safely say that if square balances around the kind of people in pf we are all doomed.

People's frustrations with trick seems to be because people don't optimise it. Pretty sure the solution to that is asking square to actually make the hall of novice not crap, and teach people these things. Trick is just a symptom of square's unwillingness to teach new players basic stuff. They can have an advanced course after arr, which teaches slidecasting, snapshotting, and optimising raid buffs and the like, which will give you an exp boosting ring, maybe to level 70 but just 10% this time. Square wants to make the game more casual friendly, this is how you do it. I only learned these things via Googling. By putting these things in game, casuals will appreciate it and git gud. Hall of novice rework is a better spend of time and resources than making ninja unfun.

[RaevusAstra]

Something I see no one talking about

If players want the game to have more small-scale hard content, NIN would be in a terrible place if it was too rdps reliant. The game is balanced around 8 man content first, and the criterion dungeons are a compromise. Current NIN would either be unviable/highly discriminated against for small scale hard content, or the hard content would be too easy when trying to balance so that even a NIN could clear.

I'd like to believe the dev team thought about this, and that's where these changes came from.

[Manofpassion]

That is actually a very good argument. If this trick change was to balance savage level 4 man content, I am willing to accept it in exchange for more challenging content. Even so, square should have come out and explained it was done in relation to criterion. We still don't know anything about criterion, so why these changes are happening now before an ultimate instead of the patch that introduces criterion is bizarre. I will say this is a good theory though, but does square have the foresight to do such a thing? I must say I'm not too convinced they do at the moment.

[RaevusAstra]

That is actually a very good argument. If this trick change was to balance savage level 4 man content, I am willing to accept it in exchange for more challenging content. Even so, square should have come out and explained it was done in relation to criterion. We still don't know anything about criterion, so why these changes are happening now before an ultimate instead of the patch that introduces criterion is bizarre. I will say this is a good theory though, but does square have the foresight to do such a thing? I must say I'm not too convinced they do at the moment.

Mhm, yeah given that I was in the same boat of "this is an unnecessary change", I thought about dungeons first which wasn't a big deal. But then also Criterion popped into my head, and unless they completely abolish DPS checks (and even then, thinking about players who wanna clear fast), they will probably need to do something to NIN, which is in a completely unique spot compared to other jobs.

I would like to believe that this change opens up avenues for a more involved attack rotation in future expansions (I think Raiton being a combo action is an awesome concept, and kinda hope that it goes back to giving you two stacks of raiju ready or that there's a bigger finish in the future), but I'm not too hopeful there. I'm not sure where the homogenization is leading towards, and I think that's the main unnerving sentiment of most players right now, especially for jobs like Dark Knight who consistently get more screwed over every expansion.

[Manofpassion]

Although, if balancing for criterion is their main concern, wouldn't the physical ranged classes have to be completely reworked so they can pull their weight? I have no idea how dancer and bards perform in 4 man dungeons, but I imagine quite a bit worse compared to other classes like monk or reaper. I still think this theory is the best explanation we have right now, but it does raise more questions than it answers. The minds of the devs are truly mysterious. Current trick wouldn't do too well in 4 man dungeons, but probably still better than dancer, bard, and maybe even mch. Those jobs would logically be prioritised first since they're the ones that needs to be adjusted the most? I really wish that in the 9 years of leading ffxiv yoshida would have learned that explaining things = good, but I guess not.

[dadong]

I imagine that bringing the current ninja into the new savage dungeons would still be okay, and the dps check is still irrelevant if the whole party is competent. I don't think those dungeons are created for the casuals anyways so their experience in going through it isn't wholly relevant either. If anything the shift to adps is only going to be noticeable for logging. Speed running dungeons will still be adps focused and realisticly the nin changes won't have any serious benefits.
What Nin lacked in adps they make up for in burst damage. pick your targets and save your resources and i think most content can be done even if your adps is low and don't forget they have to balance these solo savage dungeons for dancers healers and tanks too.