Trick Attack

[Theihe]

I personally really dislike the change, Trick being on a 1 min window is why alot of statics bring ninja's and not only just for clearing but also to add some variety to their gameplay by allowing them to dump their resources at 1 min mark. It was also integral to the identity as ninja.

Statics with no NIN were never forced to do this. Statics with NIN were forced to do this.
You mention how you'd like to be able to use your mudras as you please in between the two minute window- well- that restrictiveness is what NIN forcefully imposes on groups that bring them.
If you want to dump your resource at the 1 min mark keep doing so. Trick being personal has no real impact on anyone. It is the best possible scenario this "make raidbuffs align at 2 min" mentality could've brought NIN. We get to keep the buff, making our burst windows stay consistent, while no longer gimping our personal output.

Their idea was to limit the changes on the rotation as much as possible while making the nin buff 2 mins, but it's likely it won't play out that way unless they make mug a really awkward skill, like giving you ninki and raid buff. Ninja will be really awkward to play for a while, and I woulda prefered if they had actual balls to make trick 2 mins so we can use our ninjitsu in-between how we like. I imagine there's gonna be some odd timing forced downtime in dsw.

Why would Mug become awkward? It's possible Mug just gets a rework entierly and no longer grants Ninki too, we don't know yet. And even if it still gives Ninki just ensure you go into your burst window with no more than 60 Ninki.
Every rework/patch makes jobs a bit awkward to play for a while, growing pains will pass.
If our raidbuff is 120 sec the downtime will just be the same as for everyone else. If downtime corresponds with 60 sec windows the drift will still apply to every single tank, and some DPS, which in turn will create a universal consistent delay of 2 min windows.

Lastly depending on the balance ninja will just end up being a worse version of monk in every single way. Ninjas has worse personal mit, no mantra, and probably will always have lower rdps by design compaired to monk. So I imagine most statics given the choice will always take monk over ninja if both players are good.

Or you know, possibly, it will be on par with MNK. We have no clue at this point, and can't do much except wait for the patch.

All I know for a fact is that I will revel in the fact that my job is getting better personal contribrution right in time for DS release, cause when doing that on release "waiting til my job scales well later into the patches" isn't a viable option.

I know that this is the internet and that the norm is to freak out before actually knowing what we're freaking out about, but might it make sense to actually wait for patch notes and try out the new build before definitively declaring that the sky is falling?

This ^

[Manofpassion]

I have no doubt nin will still be viable, and the game will be balanced. Whether the class will still be fun and satisfy most ninja players' idea of class identity I have doubts. This change won't be the death of ninja, but it will likely make a lot of ninja players dissatisfied with this seemingly unwarranted change. From 6 gapclosers in a row to this, I think its fair to say the devs simply don't know why ninja players even like the class.

[dadong]

Or you know, possibly, it will be on par with MNK. We have no clue at this point, and can't do much except wait for the patch.

All I know for a fact is that I will revel in the fact that my job is getting better personal contribrution right in time for DS release, cause when doing that on release "waiting til my job scales well later into the patches" isn't a viable option.

Even if the ninja did the same dps as monk they would still fall short in utility. Making them a worse choice to bring to an ultimate. Not to mention that all ninjas will be relearning their rotation if there's any ninjas left in 6.1.

And who knows what the increased personal contrabution is, we don't know the numbers right now it could be high or it could be low. It could be that they will reduce potencies on ninjas skills to compensate for trick being a personal buff. No one knows at the moment. All I know is that if the ninja has the same dps as the monk it falls short in every single way.

[Theihe]

Even if the ninja did the same dps as monk they would still fall short in utility. Making them a worse choice to bring to an ultimate. Not to mention that all ninjas will be relearning their rotation if there's any ninjas left in 6.1.

And who knows what the increased personal contrabution is, we don't know the numbers right now it could be high or it could be low. It could be that they will reduce potencies on ninjas skills to compensate for trick being a personal buff. No one knows at the moment. All I know is that if the ninja has the same dps as the monk it falls short in every single way.

Mantra is not the end all be all of ultimate content- since all the content in the game is designed around being cleared by all jobs - utility will never be the end all be all.

We'll see how the changes turn out, but I'm quite frankly very hopeful

[aloneatsea]

Mantra is not the end all be all of ultimate content- since all the content in the game is designed around being cleared by all jobs - utility will never be the end all be all.

We'll see how the changes turn out, but I'm quite frankly very hopeful

I might be misunderstanding, but I believe the point he's making is also somewhat along the lines of 'what makes Ninja special, relative to other melee jobs?'. Before these changes, you would obviously say Trick being on a 1 minute timer. After these changes, what makes Ninja distinct from Monk, or Reaper? I can't think of anything. If I were playing another role alongside a Ninja, how I'm thinking about playing my job is now exactly the same as if I were a Monk or Reaper. Dump burst in 2min party buffs, and then ignore for the rest of the fight.

[Theihe]

I might be misunderstanding, but I believe the point he's making is also somewhat along the lines of 'what makes Ninja special, relative to other melee jobs?'. Before these changes, you would obviously say Trick being on a 1 minute timer. After these changes, what makes Ninja distinct from Monk, or Reaper? I can't think of anything. If I were playing another role alongside a Ninja, how I'm thinking about playing my job is now exactly the same as if I were a Monk or Reaper. Dump burst in 2min party buffs, and then ignore for the rest of the fight.

In my opinion there needs to be a distinction between "how it feels to play alongside NIN" and "how it feels to play NIN". These changes seem like they won't have any real impact on how the job actually feels to play. And when it comes to "how it feels to play alongside X" I would always de-prioritize such an aspect when it comes to adjusting X.

Your previous comment about how it might change the Mug placement - I don't think it will actually have that big of an impact. It would be enough to make Mug's duration 20 sec and our rotation will stay virtually the same, the only minor change being that Mug will need to be kept on cooldown as opposed to allowing it to drift to manipulate Ninki generation. And even if Mug is 15 sec we would most likely have to use it on the same spot anyways.

But we'll see, atleast for me personally I cannot see why people are losing their marbles

[dadong]

In my opinion there needs to be a distinction between "how it feels to play alongside NIN" and "how it feels to play NIN". These changes seem like they won't have any real impact on how the job actually feels to play. And when it comes to "how it feels to play alongside X" I would always de-prioritize such an aspect when it comes to adjusting X.

It's simply because ninja has always been a "how it feels to play alongside NIN" job and now it's having and identity crisis. you can see why people are losing their marbles

[aloneatsea]

In my opinion there needs to be a distinction between "how it feels to play alongside NIN" and "how it feels to play NIN". These changes seem like they won't have any real impact on how the job actually feels to play. And when it comes to "how it feels to play alongside X" I would always de-prioritize such an aspect when it comes to adjusting X.

I disagree, actually! For a job which relies a lot on buffing allies, I would consider how it feels to play alongside NIN just as important as how it feels to play NIN. I think this sort of thing should be considered for all jobs, to an extent -- for example, Black Mage wants to stay still as much as possible to keep uptime with its casts (and remain in leylines), but it is given a myriad of tools to allow it to move so that it's not burdensome for either the Black Mage or its team to play alongside it. Even so, the limited mobility of Black Mage is something I would take into account, relative to the higher mobility of Summoner or Red Mage. This is just an example, however.

I can understand why it might make more sense to prioritise the gameplay feel of a job over how it impacts other classes, and I would generally agree with you that when changes are incoming, the preservation of the gameplay feel of the job itself takes more precedence over how it impacts others. Despite this, I can't agree that in a team game, designed to play in groups of 4 or 8, "how it feels to play alongside X" isn't important enough to consider. I think that the interactions between different jobs with their various quirks is one of the many things that makes this game incredibly fun to play.

Regarding Mug

I would also have to disagree here, though we're definitely arguing on a shaky foundation, given we don't know the exacts of how these changes will shake out. Despite this, there is a definitive 'best time' to activate party buffs in the opener, which is exactly where we currently pop Trick Attack. Popping the Mug buff earlier (to leave the current opener unchanged) would desync that buff from other party buffs. Embolden, for example, is 20s, and is generally popped at the same time as Trick. This would also do nothing for the fact that Ninja currently struggle to fit its entire burst into the 15s window on odd/TCJ windows. I would imagine that Mug and Trick would be double-weaved together to ensure alignment with other party buffs. Extending the duration of Mug doesn't really impact when we pop it, because we will always want to synchronise with other party buffs as much as possible, givne that they're multiplicative. Searing Light is, I think, the longest party buff at 30s (? not 100% on this), so at the very least we would want to pop Mug at the same time as Searing Light, to maximise their overlap.

[dadong]

I don't know about being hopeful, Ninjas been put through the ringer in EW and no one knows what the devs are trying to make ninja to be.