Trick Attack

[rewd]

I am honestly stumped by the negative feelings the community has towards this TA change, because I see nothing but positives. I feel it's an amazing change, and I literally couldn't be happier unless they also made Kassatsu guarantee a crit.

I don't care NIN scales hard late tier. If you beat the DPS check then that's it. You get more gear making the DPS check more and more arbitrary. The fact that TA scales hard is just a toss-up. If you could already beat the DPS check before you scale hard then what's the point of doing more DPS?

I am excited to have my job feel strong, always, independently of if my team decided to eat chalk during raid.

You only care about clearing, other people enjoy doing speed kills.

You don't care about optimizing, other people do. Some people even like the thought of adapting and adjusting to an unconvential timer that spices things up a bit in an otherwise extremely scripted and predicatable game.

Different people have different tastes and inclinations and all of them are valid. For a game that prides itself in letting you play every job on the same character, such widespread homogenization is extremely tone-deaf.

You want a pet job? Nah.
You'd like a healer that requires more than one (1) brain cell with engaging downtime? Think of the casuals.
What about a class with meaningful resource management? Are you even listening to yourself?! Management implies failure and I'm literally shaking at the thought of it. tw: failure.
A busy job, maybe? How am I supposed to watch Netflix, then? Thank God 6.2 will fix DRG and AST being too busy.

And you wonder why people aren't happy about Riddle of Trick and Brothermug?

[Theihe]

You only care about clearing, other people enjoy doing speed kills.

You don't care about optimizing, other people do. Some people even like the thought of adapting and adjusting to an unconvential timer that spices things up a bit in an otherwise extremely scripted and predicatable game.

Different people have different tastes and inclinations and all of them are valid. For a game that prides itself in letting you play every job on the same character, such widespread homogenization is extremely tone-deaf.

You want a pet job? Nah.
You'd like a healer that requires more than one (1) brain cell with engaging downtime? Think of the casuals.
What about a class with meaningful resource management? Are you even listening to yourself?! Management implies failure and I'm literally shaking at the thought of it. tw: failure.
A busy job, maybe? How am I supposed to watch Netflix, then? Thank God 6.2 will fix DRG and AST being too busy.

And you wonder why people aren't happy about Riddle of Trick and Brothermug?

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
I cleared TEA on NIN back in ShB when the content was actually hard and required optimization.
My logs are public.
Do not be condecending.

You can still optimize while not having your job be gimped early in the tier. This changes nothing about NIN at all. You still use TA every minute. You just get a new buff you need to keep track off. If anything this ups the skill ceiling of the job, while bringing up the base damage.


I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

Patchnotes aren't even out and people are acting like they got their favorite toy away from them.

Being the lowest DPS in your category early tier, being compensated by "oh but for speedkills you're great!" isn't healthy. Speedkills are nieche enough as is, and isn't relevant until everyone has their BiS. Or you know, just bring MNK who functions well early tier, aswell as later on.

EDIT:
This isn't a change made to "dumb down" NIN- it's a balancing patch to bring them in line with other jobs in terms of how they scale.
The devs have decided to put everything on a 2 min buff rotation. We can complain all we want about that specifically, but that doesn't change the fact that, well, we're all just bursting at 2 min now. Bringing NIN in line was expected.

[rewd]

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
I cleared TEA on NIN back in ShB when the content was actually hard and required optimization.
My logs are public.
Do not be condecending.

You can still optimize while not having your job be gimped early in the tier. This changes nothing about NIN at all. You still use TA every minute. You just get a new buff you need to keep track off. If anything this ups the skill ceiling of the job, while bringing up the base damage.


I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which most seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

Patchnotes aren't even out and people are acting like they got their favorite toy away from them.

Being the lowest DPS in your category early tier, being compensated by "oh but for speedkills you're great!" isn't healthy. Speedkills are nieche enough as is, and isn't relevant until everyone has their BiS. Or you know, just bring MNK who functions well early tier, aswell as later on.

EDIT:
This isn't a change made to "dumb down" NIN- it's a balancing patch to bring them in line with other jobs in terms of how they scale.
The devs have decided to put everything on a 2 min buff rotation. We can complain all we want about that specifically, but that doesn't change the fact that, well, we're all just bursting at 2 min now. Bringing NIN in line was expected.

I'm not mistaken, you don't express yourself properly. If you do speedruns, then you shouldn't ask yourself what's the point of doing more DPS once you get the clear, otherwise getting a clear represents the end of your gameplay (which as I have already say, it's valid).

I'm glad you perform better than most, it's still not relevant to the discussion. And also no one said this is "dumbing down" the job. I'm apparently condescending but you say that you don't take people's criticism unless they are XY good and you think that's normal. Good to know.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. Let's wait until patch notes (that won't have anything in it that will change minds). Next, we will wait until 6.2. Then 6.3 Then, *checks note* we will wait until the new expansion. Then the Media Tour, then...

Following your logic, they should also remove cards. You play one at odd minutes. This isn't 120s, so it needs to go. Moreover, AST depends on other players, so cards are a huge no-no. There, we also reduced how busy AST feels for everyone that doesn't like it. You like how busy it felt? Uh, idk, you'll find something else.

[Theihe]

I'm not mistaken, you don't express yourself properly. If you do speedruns, then you shouldn't ask yourself what's the point of doing more DPS once you get the clear, otherwise getting a clear represents the end of your gameplay (which as I have already say, it's valid).

I'm glad you perform better than most, it's still not relevant to the discussion. And also no one said this is "dumbing down" the job. I'm apparently condescending but you say that you don't take people's criticism unless they are XY good and you think that's normal. Good to know.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. Let's wait until patch notes (that won't have anything in it that will change minds). Next, we will wait until 6.2. Then 6.3 Then, *checks note* we will wait until the new expansion. Then the Media Tour, then...

Following your logic, they should also remove cards. You play one at odd minutes. This isn't 120s, so it needs to go. Moreover, AST depends on other players, so cards are a huge no-no. There, we also reduced how busy AST feels for everyone that doesn't like it. You like how busy it felt? Uh, idk, you'll find something else.

You are missing my point. The reality is that once you beat the DPS check there isn't actually any reason to do more DPS. The first, and only real hurdle, is beating the DPS check once, at which point it gets continously easier.
If one job has a rougher time meeting that check because "they scale harder later" then they, and their team, is arbitrarily taxed.
Speedkills is a player generated challenge which fills no function outside of filling time between patches.

It is relevant that people saying "this change is bad" doesn't actively play the job. A lot of the comments are from DPS saying "oh I like putting abilities under trick", which, while being wholesome, isn't relevant to if this change is better for the NIN players themselves.

We should wait until the patchnotes, and they will give us proper potency changes alongside them. People jump the gun so hard without getting the full picture. Don't strawman my argument.

This isn't my argument. It's disingenuous for you to imply such.

[dadong]

I personally really dislike the change, Trick being on a 1 min window is why alot of statics bring ninja's and not only just for clearing but also to add some variety to their gameplay by allowing them to dump their resources at 1 min mark. It was also integral to the identity as ninja.

Their idea was to limit the changes on the rotation as much as possible while making the nin buff 2 mins, but it's likely it won't play out that way unless they make mug a really awkward skill, like giving you ninki and raid buff. Ninja will be really awkward to play for a while, and I woulda prefered if they had actual balls to make trick 2 mins so we can use our ninjitsu in-between how we like. I imagine there's gonna be some odd timing forced downtime in dsw.

Lastly depending on the balance ninja will just end up being a worse version of monk in every single way. Ninjas has worse personal mit, no mantra, and probably will always have lower rdps by design compaired to monk. So I imagine most statics given the choice will always take monk over ninja if both players are good.

[Theihe]

I personally really dislike the change, Trick being on a 1 min window is why alot of statics bring ninja's and not only just for clearing but also to add some variety to their gameplay by allowing them to dump their resources at 1 min mark. It was also integral to the identity as ninja.

Statics with no NIN were never forced to do this. Statics with NIN were forced to do this.
You mention how you'd like to be able to use your mudras as you please in between the two minute window- well- that restrictiveness is what NIN forcefully imposes on groups that bring them.
If you want to dump your resource at the 1 min mark keep doing so. Trick being personal has no real impact on anyone. It is the best possible scenario this "make raidbuffs align at 2 min" mentality could've brought NIN. We get to keep the buff, making our burst windows stay consistent, while no longer gimping our personal output.

Their idea was to limit the changes on the rotation as much as possible while making the nin buff 2 mins, but it's likely it won't play out that way unless they make mug a really awkward skill, like giving you ninki and raid buff. Ninja will be really awkward to play for a while, and I woulda prefered if they had actual balls to make trick 2 mins so we can use our ninjitsu in-between how we like. I imagine there's gonna be some odd timing forced downtime in dsw.

Why would Mug become awkward? It's possible Mug just gets a rework entierly and no longer grants Ninki too, we don't know yet. And even if it still gives Ninki just ensure you go into your burst window with no more than 60 Ninki.
Every rework/patch makes jobs a bit awkward to play for a while, growing pains will pass.
If our raidbuff is 120 sec the downtime will just be the same as for everyone else. If downtime corresponds with 60 sec windows the drift will still apply to every single tank, and some DPS, which in turn will create a universal consistent delay of 2 min windows.

Lastly depending on the balance ninja will just end up being a worse version of monk in every single way. Ninjas has worse personal mit, no mantra, and probably will always have lower rdps by design compaired to monk. So I imagine most statics given the choice will always take monk over ninja if both players are good.

Or you know, possibly, it will be on par with MNK. We have no clue at this point, and can't do much except wait for the patch.

All I know for a fact is that I will revel in the fact that my job is getting better personal contribrution right in time for DS release, cause when doing that on release "waiting til my job scales well later into the patches" isn't a viable option.

I know that this is the internet and that the norm is to freak out before actually knowing what we're freaking out about, but might it make sense to actually wait for patch notes and try out the new build before definitively declaring that the sky is falling?

This ^

[Manofpassion]

I have no doubt nin will still be viable, and the game will be balanced. Whether the class will still be fun and satisfy most ninja players' idea of class identity I have doubts. This change won't be the death of ninja, but it will likely make a lot of ninja players dissatisfied with this seemingly unwarranted change. From 6 gapclosers in a row to this, I think its fair to say the devs simply don't know why ninja players even like the class.

[kackal_Jackal]

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
...

I understand why you reacted this way, but this was unnecessary. I don't get why you're bragging on the official forums and bringing up logs to bolster yourself. No speedrunner would come in here and do that anyway. And the idea of 'not taking people's ideas seriously if they perform worse'? A player does not need to be amazing log-wise to know what they're talking about.

However, I mostly disagree with the points you made. For the sake of balance and removing the disparity between NIN players, the proposal is deleting NIN's unique staple and forcing it on the 2m like everyone else is just a sleeper. MNK and DRG are just alternate versions of the same job, rotation and buff type/% aside. Will it make balance easier on SE's behalf? Sure, I suppose. Doesn't mean this change is any good.

NIN's rotation is unlikely to change very much, but a lot of jobs find it very fun to play around Trick Attack or have it on their radar. You can see the difference between a good DRK and a bad DRK solely based how well they can work around Trick, same goes for SAMS, DNCs, RPRs... that have that option to do so, but otherwise it won't naturally happen. You see it as a restriction, others find it fun and rewarding.

Also are you suggesting a NIN's lower personal contributes less into buffs? A job that has one of the highest 2m bursts and is respectable every minute? The job is incredible for buffs. aDPS is a very flawed metric though if you don't strip down the comp first.

Even so, what class you decide to bring to prog does not matter when savage content is clearable on any job outside maybe week 1 if the potency tuning is just terrible. NINs can clear the content fine without the need for players to "plan and optimize". Especially given their excellent disengage ability and simple enough filler that makes mechanical execution simple, something that other melee may just not have during prog. Week 1 & 2 prog groups have brought NIN in the past and had no issues, despite the scaling. Early PF can clear just fine with a NIN. With any job in that matter. If you can't clear the week 2 dps check and you're on NIN, I think you have other issues unrelated to Trick Attack (:

That is just the nature of buff jobs and unless we want carbon copies of the same job for "balance", some jobs do better in certain situations than others. Having a unique staple means a job has both weaknesses and strengths, and if you want jobs to be viable in every situation, we might as well be all playing the same job! Because that's what direction we're heading in and honestly it's rather boring.

And shouldn't this argument apply to tether and litany as well, both buffs are just slightly behind Trick's total utility? DRG also relies on its party members, both to not bring guaranteed crit and for a good partner to utilize tether.

[Theihe]

I understand why you reacted this way, but this was unnecessary. I don't get why you're bragging on the official forums and bringing up logs to bolster yourself. No speedrunner would come in here and do that anyway. And the idea of 'not taking people's ideas seriously if they perform worse'? A player does not need to be amazing log-wise to know what they're talking about.

However, I mostly disagree with the points you made. For the sake of balance and removing the disparity between NIN players, the proposal is deleting NIN's unique staple and forcing it on the 2m like everyone else is just a sleeper. MNK and DRG are just alternate versions of the same job, rotation and buff type/% aside. Will it make balance easier on SE's behalf? Sure, I suppose. Doesn't mean this change is any good.

NIN's rotation is unlikely to change very much, but a lot of jobs find it very fun to play around Trick Attack or have it on their radar. You can see the difference between a good DRK and a bad DRK solely based how well they can work around Trick, same goes for SAMS, DNCs, RPRs... that have that option to do so, but otherwise it won't naturally happen. You see it as a restriction, others find it fun and rewarding.

Also are you suggesting a NIN's lower personal contributes less into buffs? A job that has one of the highest 2m bursts and is respectable every minute? The job is incredible for buffs. aDPS is a very flawed metric though if you don't strip down the comp first.

Even so, what class you decide to bring to prog does not matter when savage content is clearable on any job outside maybe week 1 if the potency tuning is just terrible. NINs can clear the content fine without the need for players to "plan and optimize". Especially given their excellent disengage ability and simple enough filler that makes mechanical execution simple, something that other melee may just not have during prog. Week 1 & 2 prog groups have brought NIN in the past and had no issues, despite the scaling. Early PF can clear just fine with a NIN. With any job in that matter. If you can't clear the week 2 dps check and you're on NIN, I think you have other issues unrelated to Trick Attack (:

That is just the nature of buff jobs and unless we want carbon copies of the same job for "balance", some jobs do better in certain situations than others. Having a unique staple means a job has both weaknesses and strengths, and if you want jobs to be viable in every situation, we might as well be all playing the same job! Because that's what direction we're heading in and honestly it's rather boring.

And shouldn't this argument apply to tether and litany as well, both buffs are just slightly behind Trick's total utility? DRG also relies on its party members, both to not bring guaranteed crit and for a good partner to utilize tether.

My response was a rebuttal of claims made about me. I can see why it would read as pretentious, and although it could probably have been written better, If someone says I do not care about X Y Z, I should be in the right to say such a claim against me is false.

No. What I said was not "I do not care about your opinion if you parse green" it was "if you don't even play the job you opinion means less on this subject to me".

You are mistaken.
I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

It is relevant that people saying "this change is bad" doesn't actively play the job. A lot of the comments are from DPS saying "oh I like putting abilities under trick", which, while being wholesome, isn't relevant to if this change is better for the NIN players themselves.

Yeah this I see, in my opinion it's not the biggest deal. It's also not inherently that some players "work around trick" is that our openers are created with Trick in mind- so as long as they dont drift they end up with stuff under TA. So it certainly is not always (sometimes, but most of the case, definitely not) people optimizing- just playing their job correctly. It's worth keeping in mind that a majority of statics do not heavily optimize. And having one job overly reliant on people doing so when other jobs are not is a reasonable thing to adress from a development standpoint.

No, where did I claim this?
If you mean in the long post I qouted on the first page, it has sections cut out and is part of a larger discussion regarding how FFLOGS can be used to indicate job health- but isnt necessarily a good indicator for the actual numbers.
I'm not really sure why aDPS is mentioned here. I feel like I'm missing context for this entire section.

Cute smiley, very passive agressive and charming, still not relevant to the claim I was originally making.
I said "The first, and only real hurdle, is beating the DPS check once, at which point it gets continously easier. If one job has a rougher time meeting that check because "they scale harder later" then they, and their team, is arbitrarily taxed."
The argument being "by having one job that is such an outlier in terms of the balancing - while all other DPS have been shoehorned into it this 2 min window- a change was expected".

I don't know if this section is an argument against me, but I agree to some extent. I can see why they're (the devs) taking the easy way out, and for me personally I am looking forward to the change. The devs have absolutely no clue what to do about TA, or a ton of other jobs in the game at the moment, and just having them put trick on 2 min (after repeatedly getting nerfed due to being way too strong) is a huge relief over the other options we could've gotten.
I'll just throw it out there that I don't find NIN's TA being this whole end all be all of it's kit as if it's the only thing making NIN into NIN. I think it lost it identity already with emnity management going out the window, debuffs not needed to be kept up, and so on. Because really TA isn't support, it's just roundabout damage. Mantra, Feint, Arcane crest and other such abilities are the real "support" jobs- NIN hasn't been a real support for years at this point.

I want to stress that it's not an "argument", it is an "assumption". I'm guessing they will just move everything (or nearly) onto a 2 min rotation with just about the same value because trying to juggle 20 raidbuffs is impossible. Especially when you try to scale it up.
So not an argument, I'm mainly guessing what their reasoning is.