What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[kpxmanifesto]

There's no "could have" or "or" here. We are flat out told several times that the society of the Ancients was not the paradise they thought it was. Hermes has an existential breakdown wondering why he's the only one who sees the flaws while he demonstrably shows that his comrades are way too quick to give up on living beings. We're treated to a major cutscene when Venat tries to convince her fellow Ancients that they can't ignore suffering, only for them to disregard her, and foce her to sunder the world so that mankind can know suffering and overcome it.

And, as I mentioned, we have the devs outright telling us that one of the doomed planets we saw was exactly where the Ancients were heading if they ever achieved the "perfection" they craved.

If you see all this and think "well, I don't see how they were intentionally painting them as morally-grey", then I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah, I still don't really see it. Remember we've only actually interacted with a few ancients, and ones that worked as scientists. That's a very small sample size. The ancients are an entire civilization and we've only seen a very small fraction of them.

This is high-school-book-report levels of theming.

What, like the endwalker story?

[CrownySuccubus]

Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing.

In narrative, calling a breathing, thinking person an "it" is typically a denial of personhood. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...IsDehumanizing This, combined with the fact that the story specifically calls out several times how most Ancients disregard the lives of concepts and familiars demonstrates that their disregard of species other than their own wasn't unique to the future Ascians. Ancient society thought that way from the start.

And as I said, I'm not the person who pointed out the Ancients turning butterflies into clothes. You are specifically told the WOL was shocked by it, and Hytholodeus has to explain to your PC why it's okay because they don't really consider concepts living things. If the story had never brought it up, I wouldn't have cared. But they specifically brought it up to demonstrate how the Ancients think.

[CrownySuccubus]

Yeah, I still don't really see it. Remember we've only actually interacted with a few ancients, and ones that worked as scientists. That's a very small sample size. The ancients are an entire civilization and we've only seen a very small fraction of them.

Hermes specifically says that their entire society is like this. He felt this way long before he came to Elpis, furthermore, neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodeus are scientists. Nor are the guys who want to sacrifice the non-Ancient lifeforms to Zodiark.

We are outright shown that being a scientist has nothing to do with this mentality.

What, like the endwalker story?

I mean...yes?

[Theodric]

Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing.

Unfortunately Twitter is apparently the crowd that the development team is seeking to cater to primarily these days.

Incidentally, social media has become a den of depravity in recent years and is now host to people openly calling for the deaths and imprisonment of anyone who dares to to think or act differently to themselves.

Which makes the development team's decision all the more baffling, really. They can't be oblivious to the way in which the last two years have played out and as such a story involving wiping out an entire species based on Venat's delusions just felt like a very large faux pas. Especially when it is largely the social media regulars who are cheering on Endwalker as the most amazing story to date.

[Lauront]

That is because for the MSQ, and even during the sidequests, the MC is pretending to be a familiar, which generally would be arcane constructs devoid of a soul, and with rather limited cognitive capabilities compared to an ancient; a bit like comparing a chimpanzee, with its rudimentary reasoning faculties, to us... Any assessment of one possessing a soul is said to be a complex matter, no less because familiars can be woven with their creator's aether. It is only through further interactions that some of the ancients begin to question whether you're really a familiar, indicating that you're behaving in ways more complex than they're generally capable of... Emet-Selch eventually is suggested to have come to see the sundered as child-like beings. I'm not sure what people expect for a race with all the faculties of the ancients to think of much shorter lived, ephemeral beings.

[CrownySuccubus]

Unfortunately Twitter is apparently the crowd that the development team is seeking to cater to primarily these days.

Incidentally, social media has become a den of depravity in recent years and is now host to people openly calling for the deaths and imprisonment of anyone who dares to to think or act differently to themselves.

If you guys think that public outrage is unique to, or even that bad on, Twitter, then let me tell y'all about the Red Scare, the War on Drugs and the Cult of Domesticity.

[PawPaw]

I mean I was doing the sidequests on a reaper, with an avatar sidekick that devours the souls of beings for fuel, and did the main quests with a relic weapon forged from crystallised misery, having routinely partaken in the outdoors slaughterfests known as fates. At this point, if they're expecting me to take the character's "shock" seriously, it just paints them as delusional.

Right? "Pardon me, my good fellows, I must take my leave as apparently there is an S-Rank beast in this zone that needs to be attacked and murdered for no real reason AND I'd like to get the orchestration roll for Elpis so I'll need to follow that up with the mass slaughter of every animal that I find within these pink spots on my map. You guys are so cruel to arcane entities though, btw, do better. Cheerio!"

[KizuyaKatogami]

Hermes specifically says that their entire society is like this. He felt this way long before he came to Elpis, furthermore, neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodeus are scientists. Nor are the guys who want to sacrifice the non-Ancient lifeforms to Zodiark.

We are outright shown that being a scientist has nothing to do with this mentality.



I mean...yes?

Hermes himself was flawed, as he thinks hes the only one with these feelings yet if he literally walked out of his huge doors and talked to people he would realize other people share his sentiments. As for the whole Venat scene....She confronted them after the final days had already hit, when she had the knowledge to potentially avert it altogether. She tries to preach to them that they need to learn suffering yet we know via side quests that the ancients did suffer countless times,including the final days itself.They didnt force her to sunder the world, she did that of her own free will, for not believing in her own people and not practicing what she preached about nothing is impossible and to not give up hope. Afaik, the devs didnt outright say the ancients were heading for the end that the dead ends people were, just that thats what Venat thinks and they were "probably" heading that way.

[Lauront]

Right? "Pardon me, my good fellows, I must take my leave as apparently there is an S-Rank beast in this zone that needs to be attacked and murdered for no real reason AND I'd like to get the orchestration roll for Elpis so I'll need to follow that up with the mass slaughter of every animal that I find within these pink spots on my map. You guys are so cruel to arcane entities though, btw, do better. Cheerio!"

And do be sure to pay no mind to the egi that may or may not die in the process.

[kpxmanifesto]

Hermes specifically says that their entire society is like this. He felt this way long before he came to Elpis, furthermore, neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodeus are scientists. Nor are the guys who want to sacrifice the non-Ancient lifeforms to Zodiark.

We are outright shown that being a scientist has nothing to do with this mentality.

I mean, sure, it's definitely a possibility. How's Hermes to know that information though? That dude is just another scientist. Emet and Hythlodaeus are already familiar with Elpis so it's not too hard to imagine that they became desensitized to these sort of things. Are the guys sacrificing non-Ancient lifeforms truly morally gray though? I'd do the same if it meant saving the entire civilization.