What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[kpxmanifesto]

snip

IMO, I don't think the writers were anywhere near the level of elaboration as you make it out to be. We can speculate about whether the writers truly sought to address things like morality, paradise, despair, etc., but to me, having all the events play out as they did despite the WoL traveling back in time and revealing the future to the ancients feels like the writers were just going through the motions and trying to complete the story without spending too much extra time on it. If the sundering didn't happen or the circumstances surrounding the sundering were changed somehow, the writers would have to deal with an altered timeline or a multi-verse timeline like MCU, and it would be significantly more work. To be completely honest, the fact that we have to speculate about different characters' intentions and the story on an internet forum is further testament that the writers did a poor job at explaining things. We're seeking to fill the story in with our own thoughts and ideas because the writers failed to do so.

[CrownySuccubus]

IMO, I don't think the writers were anywhere near the level of elaboration as you make it out to be. We can speculate about whether the writers truly sought to address things like morality, paradise, despair, etc., but to me, having all the events play out as they did despite the WoL traveling back in time and revealing the future to the ancients feels like the writers were just going through the motions and trying to complete the story without spending too much extra time on it. If the sundering didn't happen or the circumstances surrounding the sundering were changed somehow, the writers would have to deal with an altered timeline or a multi-verse timeline like MCU, and it would be significantly more work. To be completely honest, the fact that we have to speculate about different characters' intentions and the story on an internet forum is further testament that the writers did a poor job at explaining things. We're seeking to fill the story in with our own thoughts and ideas because the writers failed to do so.

I don't really think I said anything elaborate. There was a definite, deliberate effort to make the Ancients more morally-grey. That's obvious the instant you reach Elpis, and the Ancients start calling you "it" and telling you to kill butterflies to make new clothes. I recall at the time thinking it was weird that Hythlodeus claims the WOL was "shocked" by how coldly they transformed the butterflies into clothes. I didn't understand why the hell the WOL would even care, given the number of "Go kill X creatures and bring back Y parts" fetch quests we commonly get sent on. It started to make "sense" when the rest of the Elpis story thread started highlighting how nonchalant the Ancients were to death; especially that of constructs. It even became the central axis of Hermes' motivation, and thus the impetus of the entire FFXIV saga. It's pretty clear that casting a new, morally-grey light on the Ancients was a deliberate focus of the writers.

Like I said, they just did it in such a heavy-handed way that they turned around to actually making them morally "dark". We are clearly meant to see them as flat out wrong, and this is only furthered by the fact that Deka-hepta was stated by the devs to be where Eitheirys was headed before the Sundering.

[HollowedDoll]

I don't really think I said anything elaborate. There was a definite, deliberate effort to make the Ancients more morally-grey. That's obvious the instant you reach Elpis, and the Ancients start calling you "it" and telling you to kill butterflies to make new clothes.

Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing.

[CrownySuccubus]

Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing.

In narrative, calling a breathing, thinking person an "it" is typically a denial of personhood. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...IsDehumanizing This, combined with the fact that the story specifically calls out several times how most Ancients disregard the lives of concepts and familiars demonstrates that their disregard of species other than their own wasn't unique to the future Ascians. Ancient society thought that way from the start.

And as I said, I'm not the person who pointed out the Ancients turning butterflies into clothes. You are specifically told the WOL was shocked by it, and Hytholodeus has to explain to your PC why it's okay because they don't really consider concepts living things. If the story had never brought it up, I wouldn't have cared. But they specifically brought it up to demonstrate how the Ancients think.

[HollowedDoll]

In narrative, calling a breathing, thinking person an "it" is typically a denial of personhood. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...IsDehumanizing This, combined with the fact that the story specifically calls out several times how most Ancients disregard the lives of concepts and familiars demonstrates that their disregard of species other than their own wasn't unique to the future Ascians. Ancient society thought that way from the start.

And as I said, I'm not the person who pointed out the Ancients turning butterflies into clothes. You are specifically told the WOL was shocked by it, and Hytholodeus has to explain to your PC why it's okay because they don't really consider concepts living things. If the story had never brought it up, I wouldn't have cared. But they specifically brought it up to demonstrate how the Ancients think.

And how in the everliving hell are they supposed to know that you're a living breathing thinking "person" when you cannot even talk and look like a a miniature joke familiar resembling their prankster friend. After you get a big load of Emet's aether I'm pretty sure they stop referring to you as an it. Plus they never called Meteion an it either who is the closest to a "person", as far as I recall. As for the latter, it could be as simple as how you need a hunting license nowadays to hunt, so you cannot just "take" without permission.

[CrownySuccubus]

And how in the everliving hell are they supposed to know that you're a living breathing thinking "person" when you cannot even talk and look like a a miniature joke familiar resembling their prankster friend. After you get a big load of Emet's aether I'm pretty sure they stop referring to you as an it. Plus they never called Meteion an it either who is the closest to a "person", as far as I recall. As for the latter, it could be as simple as how you need a hunting license nowadays to hunt, so you cannot just "take" without permission.

Why are you arguing with me as if I'm the one who wrote the damn story?

My point was that, in writing, when an author wants to make a character seem dismissive of another life form, they will call them an "it". For example, in Terminator 2, there's an entire argument John (who sees the robot as a friend) and his mother (who does not) have over calling the machine "he" or "it". In Silence of the Lambs, Buffalo Bill constantly refers to the victims (who are human women) as "it" until the moment he kills them. Again, my point is that it's a common narrative trope to have characters refer to some form of life they do not respect as an "it".

I am not here to debate whether or not the Ancients were correct or right to refer to the WOL as an "it" when they first meet. I'm merely describing it as one of many ways in which the plot attempts to show the dismissive attitude that Ancients have for other species. This is one example, but the entire Elpis saga is full of other examples of the same thing. I fail to see how this is even worthy of debate.

I see. Yeah, I suppose that's an interesting analysis about how they could be seen as morally grey. Why is fulfilling one's purpose and returning to the star perceived as morally grey

I mean, it's literally the entire point of Endwalker.

What the Ancients were doing was dying, and the expansion's narrative theme was how precious it was to keep living, no matter what. The entire basis of that story thread was that the Ancients saw death (for themselves, but especially for non-Ancients) as no big deal, and Hermes (and later Venat) are the only ones who saw this attitude as a problem.

Once again, I am not agreeing with the story's morality, but that's what it is.

[kpxmanifesto]

What the Ancients were doing was dying, and the expansion's narrative theme was how precious it was to keep living, no matter what. The entire basis of that story thread was that the Ancients saw death (for themselves, but especially for non-Ancients) as no big deal, and Hermes (and later Venat) are the only ones who saw this attitude as a problem.

I personally don't see dying after having fulfilled one's purpose as morally grey, though. That happens to humans in real life too. They serve a purpose by working during adulthood, then they grow old and are unable to fulfill that purpose anymore, and then they die. I don't really perceive that as a moral issue. Sacrificing non-ancients can be a morally grey area depending on how you look at it, although I personally wouldn't consider it to be.

[Brinne]

I mean, it's literally the entire point of Endwalker.

What the Ancients were doing was dying, and the expansion's narrative theme was how precious it was to keep living, no matter what.

This just caught my eye, apologies. It's sort of odd when you consider "Flow," as described by Ishikawa, as a song about gently accepting death, and part of Meteion's answer as the song of hope to the universe. Endwalker is a very strange expansion, huh.

EDIT:

Seriously? Ugh. I know this thread is somewhat infamous now for being 200+ pages of EW criticism. I can only hope they have someone on the team reading it.

Well, if nothing else, again, he acknowledges outright in that interview that the audience had a very different reaction than the one he anticipated re: Hermes and Ancient society, and the tone on Venat in the Q&A was very different from the one in the game. Mistakes of execution versus intent in writing happen - I think the question is how they adapt to that disconnect going forward.

[kpxmanifesto]

Once again, I am not agreeing with the story's morality, but that's what it is.

Hold on a second. You mean to say your personal interpretation of the story's morality.

[Theodric]

Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing.

Unfortunately Twitter is apparently the crowd that the development team is seeking to cater to primarily these days.

Incidentally, social media has become a den of depravity in recent years and is now host to people openly calling for the deaths and imprisonment of anyone who dares to to think or act differently to themselves.

Which makes the development team's decision all the more baffling, really. They can't be oblivious to the way in which the last two years have played out and as such a story involving wiping out an entire species based on Venat's delusions just felt like a very large faux pas. Especially when it is largely the social media regulars who are cheering on Endwalker as the most amazing story to date.