Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Atelier-Bagur]

this 'most' responsibility argument is flawed. In what content? if it's in dungeons, we can already see content being run without healers, and many people making the argument that content in dungeons doesn't matter. Not that I agree- just pointing that out.
If it's in harder content- I would argue that all roles are important - see the comment about "comfort"? sorry, if the DPS is incompetent, yes, that can sometimes be a challenge - which can be enjoyable to a point (an occasional clutch LB3 can be nice) - but as DPS and/or tanks can certainly impact the healer's 'comfort", I would rather than everyone recognizes that each role impacts the others regarding mutual performance, and should expect to be carried by another role.

That argument of running dungeons with no healers only holds true if you're already in a pre-made. But most of the playerbase tend to do roulettes or run msq dungeons with random players were you cant guarantee doing them with pog players. I mean you sometimes still can of course when they show up but commonly you get players whom arent like that.

[IDontPetLalas]

1- No? You increase the gap between the ceiling and floor across any job you increase the number of people who cannot perform that job optimally. The harder the job, the easier it is to suck at it, the worse the experience with other players will be. People cannot even do the basics of most jobs currently, to include, but not limited to, 2-1-1-1-1-1. Do you have to bow to the whim of them? No, but it IS a factor to keep in mind when you are talking about the overall balance of the game.

2- Yes, even Cure bots have a voice, even if it's not a wildly accepted one. No one has the right to discredit one opinion over another in a game meant for everyone.

3- Button interaction with others is good. I thoroughly enjoy the minigame of Eukrasian Diagnosis for Toxicons for dungeon pulls, or using Pnema for heals and DPS, or Phlegma for mobility and DPS. More of those on the other kits would be a good thing, no argument there.

4.1 Tanks have more in-depth rotations because they carry less responsibility than healers while also not having to be as reactionary. At least that makes sense to me.

4.2 Yes, tanks have better sustain. Still need a healer for a lot of fights. And I whole-heartedly disagree that tanks and healers have an equal amount of responsibility.

Yes, people should strive to enjoy the job they like in whatever content as long as they are keeping every piece of content and every player in mind. It is difficult to make a job more intricate on a boring fight and less intricate on a fight requiring more of your attention. There IS a middle ground, it just needs to be found.

Couple of points:

1- personally, with shield healing, it isn't reactionary healing. So that would apply to Sage. if someone is newer to healing, or newer to a job, or new to a dungeon I would expect that they could panic and then they would react as sch.
2-The tanks having less responsibility is very subjective. I disagree. i don't even know of a good example, especially given more and more content that needs less healing.
3- I'm not going to get into an argument about someone who only wants to heal. they can make their case, just as tanks (for example) could ask to reduce or remove all mitigation CDs and add more DPS skills, because the healer is there. i will say stating that a "game is open to everyone" does not mean that it will make everyone happy all of the time.

[WaxSw]

Snip

1-That concern would be valid if healer's gameplay had ANY ceiling as I posted in the page 26, 2 healers both pressed the same button over a HUNDRED times. The only major difference between a bad healer and a good healer is the refusal of the former to press buttons, the ceiling is the floor and that shound not be the case. On a side note if you only care about being optimal then put the effort to learn as any would do with any other role, no role should be designated as the free pass for lazy players.

2-Its not about voice, its about knowledge, in the same way you woudnt give much credit to your average person about quantum physics versus a theoretical physicist especialized in the field curebot are people who dont engage with the job systems as such their opinion doesnt show the reality as well as someone who has engaged heavily with said systems. That already happened in december when some less experienced people were saying that sge felt weak in dungeons and lo and behold with literally 0 changes currently sits as the best healer for dungeons.

3-The problem of those that you mentioned is that they are far less frequent than they should have, toxicon is basically downtime only and outside aoe is not a dps gain so in bosses or raids you usually get 3 (maybe more if there is downtime) and you may or may not use them, pneuma is the same but worse, lacks interactions its 2m cd makes it too long for a consistent rotation and its only a gain in aoe, phlegma is the best of the 3 and even with that 45s cd makes it so it barely breaks the monothony of dosis spam (page 26 again)

4.1-No, simply no especially when tanks can solo casual content, I dont know if you lack of experience makes you think otherwise but tanks carry the same responsibility healers do in more subtle ways, good boss positioning, good mitigation, mechanic execution and more dps. Healers on the other hand are nowhere as reactionary as you say, a good healer will plan the heals and cooldowns to maximize their effect the same way tanks do with their cooldowns, all the damage in the game is scripted after all.

4.2-Both exs have been cleared with tank sustain only, all the max level dungeons have been soloed with tanks and are farmed on a daily basis with a tank+3dps formation, the current first floor of savage have been cleared with tanks only, Ucob has been cleared with only tanks, either you do not know how much self sustain tanks have or are hugely overestimating what healers do

Why everyone thinks we are asking for super complex roles? We just want more stuff to do it doesnt have to be a blm rotation with 20 lines of optimization but ffs we're spamming rn a single button hundreds of times per instance for the 3rd year staight and the devs refuse to give us something to do, that gets old fast

[IDontPetLalas]

My apologies if I misquoted you regarding the 1 hour/week, it was unintentional.

re the "to add, devs must take'- first of all, not necessarily- again taking Sage as an example, where DPSing can heal. Also from the perspective of AST, there are already damage/heal spells (ES, for example), and so many OGCD skills already, that one could be removed OR combined with a DPS and no one would suffer.

Regarding the skill floor you mention above? - accessibility. No other job gets this thrown in their face, this imaginary 'oh we cannot overburden the HeaLers" argument.

I will also agree with your last sentence in which you state that the direction taken by the development team is not necessarily correct.

[QooEr]

But u r not one button spamming, not truly. U need to weave like every tank and dps (bit less so on WHM)

youre soooo right why does anyone even need different weaponskills and spells (gcds) ? we should all just have one gcd called Attack and then we can just weave our abilities. im sure dps and tanks will find that thrilling! /s

even as astro, the most ogcd heavy healer and with extremely busy burst windows, i still have periods where i basicaly just use malefic and maybe 1 ability or 2 every 30 seconds.

soooo funn..... totally not spamming malefic! (this is savage btw)

Folks want their 123 to be on one button like in pvp. But here u r wanting more buttons. No ty. Every job based around a 123 is essentially spamming 123 for the vast majority of the time. How is that any better than 1 button? To me it is the same mindless monotony either way.

why do people keep bringing up 123 combos? is every single job in the game combo based or are you just making bad faith arguments, because nobody even mentioned combos in the thread. id like the multiple dots all healers used to have (not a combo), id like to have procs (not a combo), id like if maybe using X skill reset the cooldown of Y ability so theres SOME synergy to pursue (also not a combo), id like litearlly anything but mashing the same dps button 12 times in a row after using a dot. even cookie clicker has more synergy and thought put into it than this.

In addition, wanting more skills would simply exacerbate the already serious ability bloat.

the funny thing is that ability bloat was caused by healing skills that we didnt even need, replacing old dps skills. blue mage, with just 4 heals (white wind, pom cure, BLU medica ii, BLU succor) can clear all the content its allowed to enter. even the most heal intensive savage floors. The healing skills at lv 70 were enough for two ultimates. Do we really need the amazing Fey Blessing? Did we need celestial intersection when most of the time im holding on 2 unused charges of essential dignity cuz autoattacks do almost nothing, and also aspected benefic is literally right there? Did we need exaltation when we already had two single target healing abilities with 2 charges each? do we need cure and benefic 1 when regen/asp bene heal 3x as much for the same mp cost? i would gladly lose 2 heal skills to have 2 not-healing buttons instead for downtime.

[WaxSw]

But u r not one button spamming, not truly. U need to weave like every tank and dps (bit less so on WHM). In addition, wanting more skills would simply exacerbate the already serious ability bloat.

Folks want their 123 to be on one button like in pvp. But here u r wanting more buttons. No ty. Every job based around a 123 is essentially spamming 123 for the vast majority of the time. How is that any better than 1 button? To me it is the same mindless monotony either way.

Who would have thought everything is easy once u map out the fight huh? Damn, it is almost like that is the goal in hard content. DPS does it, tank does it, healers as well. Guess everyone is bored? We should all get more dmg buttons, that'll fix our problems!

Someone in one of these QQ threads suggested a really good idea. Have more GCD dmg dealing abilities that also heal (like macrocosmos and pneuma). That might be a good angle to pursue.

First no one asks for 123 standarized but having more stuff to do, there are cooldown, dots, buff, basically job interactions cause thats what make the jobs fun

Second is not about easy, is about engaging gameplay but some people seem to be either really lacking on reading comprehension or outright trolling cause that has been said multiple times

Third what you said about weaving and tanks is simply false, lets see the tanks case:
War


As we can see fell cleaver which is out of the main combo is the most used action and tanks to the branching paths one of its 3s is even below an ogcd, we can see also how no action goes above 6 in the cpm so there is variety in what they do

Pld


This case is even better as atonement is also out of the main combo and its the most used action, the combo finishers only appear at the 5th and 9th spot on top of that no action goes above 5 in cpm so there is also variety of what they do

...Now lets see healers (again)


Big off, the most used action is glare which is the 1, something that did not happen with tanks even tough they have 1-2-3 combos, the first heal appears at 3rd spot with only 8 casts which talks a lot about how much healing was required and the glare has a cpm of 19.5 out of 30.7 so over half of the total actions they do were pressing that single button

But you said it, its a Whm thing so maybe Sge is better:



...or not, dosis still comes as the most used action, the most used heal was used 10 times and is the 3rd most used action (not gonna count eukrasia) and the cpm for dosis is 19.5 out of 33 so is what the sage did the majority of the fight

Dps actions are not the solution to every problem, but after seeing that there is no way someone would say they need more stuff no matter what, but a single button with those high cpms that has zero depth does not scream healthy precisely

[Ixon]

snip 1

1- The difference between any good or bad player is mostly button pressing and Crit chance.
2- Comparing FF to quantum physics. And if you think one post of people saying SGE was weak in dungeons had any sway, when there are about 100 posts from healers and DRK's about other issues, idk bout that one. SGE is strong because it's the most recent job which historically are the better designed. Plus, SGE and RPR are the expansion jobs which historically are strong out the gate.
3- Didn't say SGE was perfect, just said I think it's a step in the right direction with having a more interesting DPS kit compared to the other healers regardless of it's frequency. Can it be improved? Probably.
4.1- Good boss positioning? Two out of four of the fights don't require boss positioning and they all re-center themselves at timed intervals. Mitigation? Here is one for the auto's, invlun for the tank buster, rinse and repeat, and every 90sec and 60sec I can help with an AoE. Mechanic execution? Everyone does mechanics... Reactionary? Right, because when someone dies the tanks raise them. Or when someone eats damage and gets a vuln stack before an AoE, it's usually the tanks that heal them to full. HoC will not save someone if they are half HP with a vuln stack and a spicy AoE goes out. I know. I have tried lol. You are talking about a 100% scripted encounter and not including the random bits of mistakes that usually the healers have to make up for.
4.2 Both EX's where NOT cleared with Tank sustain only, they were cleared with tank sustain, 4 stacks of Curing Walts(that heals for quite a bit), 4 Shield Samba's, 4 Improvisation's, 2 Arcan Crests, and broken RPR damage. There are two roads, what is a challenge for fun, and what's optimal. No healer runs are NOT optimal, hence why they are only done as a CHALLANGE. And I have stated in the past that the EX trials were undertuned. Please don't mention P1N that takes over an hour with no enrage...
I'm not saying healers can't have a slightly more complex DPS rotation. Just pointing out people are 1. Misquoting what Yoshi said entirely and 2. Need to keep all players, from hardcore to casual, and all content, from dungeons to ultimates in mind. I do not believe(despite what people have been saying on the forums) that either the dev team or Yoshi is purposefully waging a war against healer fun. They have their reasons that I can only assume based off what we have been told, and based of the direction the game has gone.

snip 2

1- You are confusing reactionary as Regen vs Shield healers. I am saying how someone in your group steps in the bad and you have to react and spot heal before the next AoE kills them, or spot raise and heal them up.
2- Tanks have to deal with tankbusters(that are usually invulned), and boss movement(which was only a thing in P3S and P4S Part1, but very minor usually albeit some specific fights). Healer have to heal the tank busters, heal the AoE's, heal the dead, and are usually the ones doing out mechanics, towers, tethers, etc.

[Deceptus]

Folks want their 123 to be on one button like in pvp. But here u r wanting more buttons. No ty. Every job based around a 123 is essentially spamming 123 for the vast majority of the time. How is that any better than 1 button? To me it is the same mindless monotony either way.

Because no other role in the game presses a single button more than healers do for their downtime

Every single tank has a burst phase. All of them. With varying degrees of complexity. But they all have their 123 + at least 4 other buttons to keep them busy for their damage.

[AnotherPerson]

1- No? You increase the gap between the ceiling and floor across any job you increase the number of people who cannot perform that job optimally. The harder the job, the easier it is to suck at it, the worse the experience with other players will be. People cannot even do the basics of most jobs currently, to include, but not limited to, 2-1-1-1-1-1. Do you have to bow to the whim of them? No, but it IS a factor to keep in mind when you are talking about the overall balance of the game.

2- Yes, even Cure bots have a voice, even if it's not a wildly accepted one. No one has the right to discredit one opinion over another in a game meant for everyone.

3- Button interaction with others is good. I thoroughly enjoy the minigame of Eukrasian Diagnosis for Toxicons for dungeon pulls, or using Pnema for heals and DPS, or Phlegma for mobility and DPS. More of those on the other kits would be a good thing, no argument there.

4.1 Tanks have more in-depth rotations because they carry less responsibility than healers while also not having to be as reactionary. At least that makes sense to me.

4.2 Yes, tanks have better sustain. Still need a healer for a lot of fights. And I whole-heartedly disagree that tanks and healers have an equal amount of responsibility.

Yes, people should strive to enjoy the job they like in whatever content as long as they are keeping every piece of content and every player in mind. It is difficult to make a job more intricate on a boring fight and less intricate on a fight requiring more of your attention. There IS a middle ground, it just needs to be found.

1. Content where players don't need to perform optimally already exists - it's normal content. Not every DPS, tank, or healer is expected to perform optimally there. There's no enrage, and the barrier to entry is as low as it can get. No normal content requires healer DPS to make the check - just as no normal content requires all the DPS to be playing stellar to beat the enemies.

And if optimization was really a concern, they could really just nerf tank gameplay to 1 button DPS rotation as well so they have an "easier" time in high-end content and in normal mode content to completely focus on mitigations only. You don't see that happening because... more difficult content is supposed to require the players to optimize and play better to contribute more to the team. Plus, tanks will be bored out of their minds until something new happens.

But this isn't what this thread is focused on. This thread is focused on increasing depth for those who can and want to feel engaged. Any players who does normal content should still be able to feel engaged with their entire toolkit since the normal content IS the main focus of the game.

2. Saying curebots have a voice is equivalent to saying tanks who don't want to use their full mitigation tools have a voice, or DPS who doesn't want to use their DPS abilities have a voice.

Sure, they have a voice, but no one is going to take them seriously for gameplay depth if they're neglecting a portion of their toolkit that's beneficial. Their opinion caters to the low-end spectrum of the ease and availability of the game, not the mid or upper tier spectrum where players are fully utilizing their toolkits. High-end gameplay is not what are designed for players who don't want to fully utilize and optimize their entire toolkit.

If curebots are happy with the engagement of just healing in normal mode content, then more power to them. However, that's no reason to not give healers more engaging toolkits. The most simple compromise is always DPS skills - curebots lose nothing with new DPS skills since they're already not playing optimally in the first place and don't gain any more responsibility that they already neglected. Healers who want to do something more in normal content for more engagement will get something extra.


4.1 That makes no sense. Tanks have to both position the boss (when mechanics happen and require them to reposition them), interrupt casts when applicable, aggro swap (provoke/shirk), and mitigate before tankbusters and raidwides happen. Jobs with additional healing /mitigation support like WAR/DRK/PLD/GNB (Nascent Flash/Shake it off /The Blackest Night/ Dark Missionary /Heart of Corundum / Heart of Light / Aurora) can also target party members/co-tank, so they're also watching the party's status bar and the boss's cast bar like healers are. They are just as reactionary as the healers since they have to watch and plan ahead. All while having more things to do.

Healers just have to watch the party's status bar, watch the boss's next skill, and press 1-1-1-1-1-1 until the party's status bar drops, and then heal.

[Chopstix]

That's called downtime. Every job has a lot less buttons to press in downtime, as u save ur shiny stuff for the 1/2 min bursts. DPS and tanks have more dmg abilities because they dont need to have a healing kit as well to keep an entire party alive.

I think i saw 123 in other threads similar to this, one loses track. Regardless. How is a 2nd dot going to change ur experience? That's b4 my time this is my first expansion.

Healers don't have room for fully fleshed out dps rotations as that would be an absolutely insane number of buttons.

I dont disagree, some healer skills could really be just removed to reduce bloat.

But it just seems to me that u r asking for complexity for complexity's sake. Im not a healer main, but i really do enjoy playing them. I try my best to optimise as well to use my oGCD skills effectively. Yes i spam the one button majority of the time too. Im not bothered by it as i have shinies to weave in as needed. Slidecasts too and prepositioning.

Once u have savage down to a T, thats just how ur GCD mapping is going to look because u did well and optimised properly with ur co healer, good job u win the game :P. I can guarantee u lots of healers r not this good at optimising fights, and they will be using many healing GCDs.

However, i will say that dmg seems to be lacking, even from a tank POV. U r not compelled to use ur full kit in savage once u play really well (and rest of ur team does too). Gearing up only helps make stuff easier too by having to heal a lil bit less and even skipping some intensive phases. I guess this might be the root of ur concern?