Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Ixon]

Gold Healing. Fair enough, I missed that. Though to be fair, I personally do not see a massive difference between 1-1-1 and 1-2-3 if that's what people want. More Dot's is already an issue across all jobs, hence why they stripped away so many, and I aslo don't think multi DoT management is the solution either way. I think things like current Phlegma, Pnemua and Toxikon are great DPS additions to a healer that have nuanced usages, but that won't fix a 2-1-1-1 spam. Putting in an actual 1-2-3 would cause button bloat unless especially on jobs like AST or SCH that I already don't have hotbar space for. DPS phases akin to like the Gnashing Fang combo with GCD's and oGCD's on a short cooldown could be interesting until you desync due to forced GCD healing.

[Chopstix]

Sadly leveling dungeons often require much more healing that max level dungeons and EX content. Been that way for a while.



This is 100% meaningless because the Adventurer in Need doesn't update in real time.

Often times you'll see a tank in need, queue up and have a 1-5 min wait. See that, swap to healer, instant queue.

This is almost universally always true for Expert Dungeon, 5678, and leveling.

EXCEPT, in need is almost always for tanks. Even alliance raids (sometimes DPS in need pops up like in the SS). On a tank role if i dont get an insta pop or close to it, im a bit surprised.

[StriderShinryu]

While I do generally agree that it wouldn't in any way be a bad thing to give the more experienced healers more to do in their down time, and I think there are absolutely ways to do it without drastically impacting the other healers, it's definitely worth considering the healer role as a whole. Healing is the one job that really does have the most responsibility in any group, and it also the one in which experience/skill/etc. has the biggest impact on not only performance but also comfort in general. When content for the general audience is designed it needs to be designed with, well, the general audience in mind. And that "general audience" of healers does include everyone from the first time healer to the novice healer to the nervous healer to the experienced "could heal in their sleep" healer. Basically, increasing healing demands in the vast majority of content is just going to make less people want to heal so there is some merit to saying "If you really want to be pushed as a healer then you should try the harder content." It doesn't mean anyone needs to be dismissive about it (which I do feel Yoshida was, even if you take the full quoted statement in context), but there is a factual basis to the general thrust of his statement.

I do think the experienced healers (and experienced players in general) do tend to overlook the fact that the vast majority of the player base isn't them, and probably doesn't want to be (or can't be). The game does need to be designed for everyone but with an extra eye towards the majority of it's players.

[WaxSw]

Snip.

1-So you're sayingng would help players to growth as well as create a skill ceiling not on par with the floor, what is wrong with that?

2-While hearing everyone, everyone's voice should not be heard the same, people who engage and know more about the systems are more valuable feedback than sylphie Mchealbot who does a roulette on whm every day and spams cure, also the outcry about how boring is the healer role is not from hardcore healers only, a lot and i mean a LOT of midcore and even casual healers feel the same

3-Its not about number of buttons but how they react with each other and for that it may be one as well as it may be needed to add 4,5 or 6, what makes a combo fun is how it interacts with the job and in the case of healers where you can easily spam your nuke over 100 times in a single fight with no thought, interaction or consequence past it there is no such engagement

Point 4- Equating a tanks responsibility to stand and point a boss north to the responsibility of a healer in any given fight is a bit of a odd. PLD various rotations? Cover?! Healing skills, like what, Clemency? Who uses that in any meaningful way that normally doesn't get them yelled at by their healer lol. No one is calling you stupid, I know for a fact SOME people are missing the point. It's ok to disagree, that's how discussions work to improve things for everyone.

4.1 (Rotations): Yes, tanks have rotations not only in the dps form (pld has both a magic and a physical phase) but also in how they time the cooldowns for mechanics in order to optimize the gains those give in the exact same way healers do with their cooldowns in fact its not rare in organized groups for tanks and healers to give feedback to each other in order to optimize the performance

4.2 (Healing): Not Clemency but the magic phase gives healing that can be used to ease the pressure of some mechanics as well as the regen divine veil and holy sheltron give, Warrior is basically a healing monster that can solo almost every dungeon in the game with skills like thrill of battle (which funily enough, was copy pasted in SCH kit) or equilibrium, Gnb has heart of corundum which basically has the same effect as Excogitation from Sch and Drk even with all its memes about lack of sustain can manage its Hp to some degree with TBN and abyssal drain for AoE.

Tanks have similar responsibilities as healers yet they get to enjoy their role while we are stuck with 1 button mash because the devs are really out of touch with how the role is played

Also this is not about challenge even if ultimate were challenging enough that would only be 1 instance to enjoy healing vs the 99,99% of the game where it becomes 1 button spam ad infinitum, We want to have fun in every piece of content, not only Ultimate (and knowing the record of this devs will eventually be proven to be solo healeable as it has happened with every Ultimate and even Ucob has been cleared without healers)

[WaxSw]

An analogy: Driving a car is hard the first time, after years of practice driving is not as difficult.

We do not ask for harder driving that was the dev team misinterpresting the question, we want to have more engaging gameplay

Following that analogy in this racing track of a game we have player who can only make their car go at 40 km/h to be safe, other could go safely at 200 km/h while drifting and doing sick techniques with their car but the rules of the track are no drifting, no techniques and no more than 60km/h, leaving safety measures out of the analogy cause this is a game (so no car crashes), why not lifting those rules when it woudnt impact the 40km/h players in any way?

I do think the experienced healers (and experienced players in general) do tend to overlook the fact that the vast majority of the player base isn't them, and probably doesn't want to be (or can't be). The game does need to be designed for everyone but with an extra eye towards the majority of it's players.

There is a huge gap between having a role designed for hardcore people and having all 4 classes be played the same and spamming 1 single buttons hundreds of times, which is what I showed in page 26 where both a sage and whm had basically the same casts and their nuke was used almost 10x as much as the second most used action which was the dot, that is simply awful design

Its nice to have a lower skill floor and a low barrier of entry but a class must not have the ceiling that low either.

[IDontPetLalas]

Point 1- It would impact me as I would feel the need to hit those buttons even if it forced me to play unoptimally, for my desire and want to perform well. I do not just forgo a button just cause I don't like it. There ARE those who do not press all of there buttons, I am not them and there are others like me.
Point 2- I never mentioned people who leveled a job and forget it. I mentioned people who play a job or role casually. There are people who even casually main a job, they are not exclusive. Feedback is important from every demographic, and the ones with the most people(usually the casuals) are the loudest.
Point 3- Fair on the dps point. If you want one or two extra buttons to make the normal mode fights more engaging then by all means.
Point 4- Equating a tanks responsibility to stand and point a boss north to the responsibility of a healer in any given fight is a bit of a odd. PLD various rotations? Cover?! Healing skills, like what, Clemency? Who uses that in any meaningful way that normally doesn't get them yelled at by their healer lol. No one is calling you stupid, I know for a fact SOME people are missing the point. It's ok to disagree, that's how discussions work to improve things for everyone.
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small snip for length

1- You mentioned that you play healer one hour per week. forgive me, you may be an exceptional player, however most people who invest a small portion of their time on one job lack the ability to assess all of its potential or how various kills should synergize, or how its toolkit should interact. i am not at all saying that you should be left out of the people who need to be considered, it is a factor , but I would recognize that someone who put a very low investment could/should have some struggles in comparison to someone who invests more time into the role. That goes to a button that you could forget because you just don't play the job enough, or a proc that could be meaningless to you (if designers end up going that route). Would that likely wipe a party? In normal content? i really doubt it. if so , i mean if you (meaning the casual you) who hasn't played the job in a week, and has never read your tooltips- well frankly, that should not hold the rest of us back.
I'm going to go straight to the rest of your comments. this has nothing to do with:
- a new expansion. Many of these comments date from just after Heavensward.
-remarks that have to do with raiding when many people are repeating to a lack of engagement, which may involve raiding, or may have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with raiding at all.
I really believe that you keep repeating this because you do not main a healer. i am in no way stating that you cannot or should not hold an opinion because you d not main a healer. I am saying that you have a very different opinion, and that you do not understand some of us that main healers.

[Ixon]

snip

1- No? You increase the gap between the ceiling and floor across any job you increase the number of people who cannot perform that job optimally. The harder the job, the easier it is to suck at it, the worse the experience with other players will be. People cannot even do the basics of most jobs currently, to include, but not limited to, 2-1-1-1-1-1. Do you have to bow to the whim of them? No, but it IS a factor to keep in mind when you are talking about the overall balance of the game.

2- Yes, even Cure bots have a voice, even if it's not a wildly accepted one. No one has the right to discredit one opinion over another in a game meant for everyone.

3- Button interaction with others is good. I thoroughly enjoy the minigame of Eukrasian Diagnosis for Toxicons for dungeon pulls, or using Pnema for heals and DPS, or Phlegma for mobility and DPS. More of those on the other kits would be a good thing, no argument there.

4.1 Tanks have more in-depth rotations because they carry less responsibility than healers while also not having to be as reactionary. At least that makes sense to me.

4.2 Yes, tanks have better sustain. Still need a healer for a lot of fights. And I whole-heartedly disagree that tanks and healers have an equal amount of responsibility.

Yes, people should strive to enjoy the job they like in whatever content as long as they are keeping every piece of content and every player in mind. It is difficult to make a job more intricate on a boring fight and less intricate on a fight requiring more of your attention. There IS a middle ground, it just needs to be found.

[Chopstix]

But u r not one button spamming, not truly. U need to weave like every tank and dps (bit less so on WHM). In addition, wanting more skills would simply exacerbate the already serious ability bloat.

Folks want their 123 to be on one button like in pvp. But here u r wanting more buttons. No ty. Every job based around a 123 is essentially spamming 123 for the vast majority of the time. How is that any better than 1 button? To me it is the same mindless monotony either way.

Who would have thought everything is easy once u map out the fight huh? Damn, it is almost like that is the goal in hard content. DPS does it, tank does it, healers as well. Guess everyone is bored? We should all get more dmg buttons, that'll fix our problems!

Someone in one of these QQ threads suggested a really good idea. Have more GCD dmg dealing abilities that also heal (like macrocosmos and pneuma). That might be a good angle to pursue.

[IDontPetLalas]

While I do generally agree that it wouldn't in any way be a bad thing to give the more experienced healers more to do in their down time, and I think there are absolutely ways to do it without drastically impacting the other healers, it's definitely worth considering the healer role as a whole. Healing is the one job that really does have the most responsibility in any group, and it also the one in which experience/skill/etc. has the biggest impact on not only performance but also comfort in general. When content for the general audience is designed it needs to be designed with, well, the general audience in mind. And that "general audience" of healers does include everyone from the first time healer to the novice healer to the nervous healer to the experienced "could heal in their sleep" healer. Basically, increasing healing demands in the vast majority of content is just going to make less people want to heal so there is some merit to saying "If you really want to be pushed as a healer then you should try the harder content." It doesn't mean anyone needs to be dismissive about it (which I do feel Yoshida was, even if you take the full quoted statement in context), but there is a factual basis to the general thrust of his statement.

I do think the experienced healers (and experienced players in general) do tend to overlook the fact that the vast majority of the player base isn't them, and probably doesn't want to be (or can't be). The game does need to be designed for everyone but with an extra eye towards the majority of it's players.

this 'most' responsibility argument is flawed. In what content? if it's in dungeons, we can already see content being run without healers, and many people making the argument that content in dungeons doesn't matter. Not that I agree- just pointing that out.
If it's in harder content- I would argue that all roles are important - see the comment about "comfort"? sorry, if the DPS is incompetent, yes, that can sometimes be a challenge - which can be enjoyable to a point (an occasional clutch LB3 can be nice) - but as DPS and/or tanks can certainly impact the healer's 'comfort", I would rather than everyone recognizes that each role impacts the others regarding mutual performance, and should expect to be carried by another role.

[Ixon]

snip

1- "You mentioned that you play healer one hour per week"- I never said that? I said I healed casually? Source? And you are talking about the casual healers who are holding the hardcore healers back. Which is not the case I am making. I'm talking about a skill floor high enough to hold that PF or DF casual healers random group back. Whether in dungeons, raids or trials. Healers overall DPS aside, in order to add, they must take(usually). If they add more DPS options, they will most likely have to remove potency off of some for their idea of balance(I personally don't care if healers do the same or more than tanks, but that's another discussion). People already say healer DPS is too low, but if you have a bad healer or a bad group and you aren't as able to hit all your buttons as you would/should like, the dps penalty will be more sever, and considering healing is far the most reactionary role, this is more likely to happen. Not saying it should gatekeep healers from having a more fun DPS rotation, but it is an item to keep in mind when you consider the overall balance of the game with all it's players.
I do not think my opinions are as far-fetched as you may believe them to be, but that is your opinion. I have read forum posts, heard main healers talk, talked to them myself, and am looking from the viewpoint with a wide angled view. Understanding that this is more than just a game, but a business that is helped maintained by the casual side of things. The same casuals that you run into every day you log on and do a dungeon, roulette, whatever. I am not on a crusade by Pope Yoshi-P to stop healer fun, I am looking at items analytically, and based off current healer design my opinions seems to be in line with the current direction made by the devs. Does that mean they are right? No. But it helps to understand why things are the way they are now, to understand what could be suggested that keeps everyone happy.
I personally want tanking to be harder than it is now, because right now it's really simple and half the time you don't even feel like a tank. The Savage fights are a cake walk minus the semi spicy auto's from P3S, but considering 2/3 tank busters are ignored through invulns and the rest are kitchen sink'd, it's not like we have much to do outside of your dps rotation. Do I want more tank mechanics, spicier hits, and more complex rotations(broken record HW DRK insert)? Yes. Will it happen when I think about the game as a whole across all it's parts? Probably not. In fact, I am MORE engaged with the increased healng I got as I can better help my healers and feel more like a tank who supports their group, though that is coming at the cost of healers doing less.