Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Ixon]

*snip for length*

Point 1- It would impact me as I would feel the need to hit those buttons even if it forced me to play unoptimally, for my desire and want to perform well. I do not just forgo a button just cause I don't like it. There ARE those who do not press all of there buttons, I am not them and there are others like me.

Point 2- I never mentioned people who leveled a job and forget it. I mentioned people who play a job or role casually. There are people who even casually main a job, they are not exclusive. Feedback is important from every demographic, and the ones with the most people(usually the casuals) are the loudest.

Point 3- Fair on the dps point. If you want one or two extra buttons to make the normal mode fights more engaging then by all means.

Point 4- Equating a tanks responsibility to stand and point a boss north to the responsibility of a healer in any given fight is a bit of a odd. PLD various rotations? Cover?! Healing skills, like what, Clemency? Who uses that in any meaningful way that normally doesn't get them yelled at by their healer lol. No one is calling you stupid, I know for a fact SOME people are missing the point. It's ok to disagree, that's how discussions work to improve things for everyone.

I have absolutely no idea why having conversations with other career healers is condescending. Is that not a good thing? To get the viewpoint from as many people directly affected?

The full quote, by the way, is: "I want to emphasize that we've done the same as we did in every previous expansion here. And that at the start of the expansion we sort of hold back on the difficulty of the raid in terms of damage taken and damage dealt and that sort of stuff. We make it a little bit easier so that as many people as possible can clear. You are probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in 5.4, but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we are still balancing things. We want to give people a chance to clear if they possibly can. And then from this point we will raise the challenge level in part two and part three of Pandemonium. I think even at that point if you're still unsatisfied, thinking healing is too easy and I want to feel more like a proper healer. Definitely try the ultimate content and suffer."

After going back and writing down what was translated myself, so many people are just grabbing what they want and blasting it out. It literally says the expansion is new, we are still tweaking jobs, this raid was easy like most first expansion raids are, the raids will get harder, after that, if you want more of a healing challenge, go try Ultimate. That last bit can be meant for every job in every role as well. For real though, provide feedback. That's fine. Disagree with the direction of healing, that's fine. Make suggestions on how things should be, that's fine. But do not discredit peoples opinions because you feel they are beneath your own, take them as an opinion, agree or disagree, and go from there. This game is supposed to be designed with everyone in mind.

[WaxSw]

Snip.

1-So you're sayingng would help players to growth as well as create a skill ceiling not on par with the floor, what is wrong with that?

2-While hearing everyone, everyone's voice should not be heard the same, people who engage and know more about the systems are more valuable feedback than sylphie Mchealbot who does a roulette on whm every day and spams cure, also the outcry about how boring is the healer role is not from hardcore healers only, a lot and i mean a LOT of midcore and even casual healers feel the same

3-Its not about number of buttons but how they react with each other and for that it may be one as well as it may be needed to add 4,5 or 6, what makes a combo fun is how it interacts with the job and in the case of healers where you can easily spam your nuke over 100 times in a single fight with no thought, interaction or consequence past it there is no such engagement

Point 4- Equating a tanks responsibility to stand and point a boss north to the responsibility of a healer in any given fight is a bit of a odd. PLD various rotations? Cover?! Healing skills, like what, Clemency? Who uses that in any meaningful way that normally doesn't get them yelled at by their healer lol. No one is calling you stupid, I know for a fact SOME people are missing the point. It's ok to disagree, that's how discussions work to improve things for everyone.

4.1 (Rotations): Yes, tanks have rotations not only in the dps form (pld has both a magic and a physical phase) but also in how they time the cooldowns for mechanics in order to optimize the gains those give in the exact same way healers do with their cooldowns in fact its not rare in organized groups for tanks and healers to give feedback to each other in order to optimize the performance

4.2 (Healing): Not Clemency but the magic phase gives healing that can be used to ease the pressure of some mechanics as well as the regen divine veil and holy sheltron give, Warrior is basically a healing monster that can solo almost every dungeon in the game with skills like thrill of battle (which funily enough, was copy pasted in SCH kit) or equilibrium, Gnb has heart of corundum which basically has the same effect as Excogitation from Sch and Drk even with all its memes about lack of sustain can manage its Hp to some degree with TBN and abyssal drain for AoE.

Tanks have similar responsibilities as healers yet they get to enjoy their role while we are stuck with 1 button mash because the devs are really out of touch with how the role is played

Also this is not about challenge even if ultimate were challenging enough that would only be 1 instance to enjoy healing vs the 99,99% of the game where it becomes 1 button spam ad infinitum, We want to have fun in every piece of content, not only Ultimate (and knowing the record of this devs will eventually be proven to be solo healeable as it has happened with every Ultimate and even Ucob has been cleared without healers)

[Ixon]

snip

1- No? You increase the gap between the ceiling and floor across any job you increase the number of people who cannot perform that job optimally. The harder the job, the easier it is to suck at it, the worse the experience with other players will be. People cannot even do the basics of most jobs currently, to include, but not limited to, 2-1-1-1-1-1. Do you have to bow to the whim of them? No, but it IS a factor to keep in mind when you are talking about the overall balance of the game.

2- Yes, even Cure bots have a voice, even if it's not a wildly accepted one. No one has the right to discredit one opinion over another in a game meant for everyone.

3- Button interaction with others is good. I thoroughly enjoy the minigame of Eukrasian Diagnosis for Toxicons for dungeon pulls, or using Pnema for heals and DPS, or Phlegma for mobility and DPS. More of those on the other kits would be a good thing, no argument there.

4.1 Tanks have more in-depth rotations because they carry less responsibility than healers while also not having to be as reactionary. At least that makes sense to me.

4.2 Yes, tanks have better sustain. Still need a healer for a lot of fights. And I whole-heartedly disagree that tanks and healers have an equal amount of responsibility.

Yes, people should strive to enjoy the job they like in whatever content as long as they are keeping every piece of content and every player in mind. It is difficult to make a job more intricate on a boring fight and less intricate on a fight requiring more of your attention. There IS a middle ground, it just needs to be found.

[IDontPetLalas]

1- No? You increase the gap between the ceiling and floor across any job you increase the number of people who cannot perform that job optimally. The harder the job, the easier it is to suck at it, the worse the experience with other players will be. People cannot even do the basics of most jobs currently, to include, but not limited to, 2-1-1-1-1-1. Do you have to bow to the whim of them? No, but it IS a factor to keep in mind when you are talking about the overall balance of the game.

2- Yes, even Cure bots have a voice, even if it's not a wildly accepted one. No one has the right to discredit one opinion over another in a game meant for everyone.

3- Button interaction with others is good. I thoroughly enjoy the minigame of Eukrasian Diagnosis for Toxicons for dungeon pulls, or using Pnema for heals and DPS, or Phlegma for mobility and DPS. More of those on the other kits would be a good thing, no argument there.

4.1 Tanks have more in-depth rotations because they carry less responsibility than healers while also not having to be as reactionary. At least that makes sense to me.

4.2 Yes, tanks have better sustain. Still need a healer for a lot of fights. And I whole-heartedly disagree that tanks and healers have an equal amount of responsibility.

Yes, people should strive to enjoy the job they like in whatever content as long as they are keeping every piece of content and every player in mind. It is difficult to make a job more intricate on a boring fight and less intricate on a fight requiring more of your attention. There IS a middle ground, it just needs to be found.

Couple of points:

1- personally, with shield healing, it isn't reactionary healing. So that would apply to Sage. if someone is newer to healing, or newer to a job, or new to a dungeon I would expect that they could panic and then they would react as sch.
2-The tanks having less responsibility is very subjective. I disagree. i don't even know of a good example, especially given more and more content that needs less healing.
3- I'm not going to get into an argument about someone who only wants to heal. they can make their case, just as tanks (for example) could ask to reduce or remove all mitigation CDs and add more DPS skills, because the healer is there. i will say stating that a "game is open to everyone" does not mean that it will make everyone happy all of the time.

[WaxSw]

Snip

1-That concern would be valid if healer's gameplay had ANY ceiling as I posted in the page 26, 2 healers both pressed the same button over a HUNDRED times. The only major difference between a bad healer and a good healer is the refusal of the former to press buttons, the ceiling is the floor and that shound not be the case. On a side note if you only care about being optimal then put the effort to learn as any would do with any other role, no role should be designated as the free pass for lazy players.

2-Its not about voice, its about knowledge, in the same way you woudnt give much credit to your average person about quantum physics versus a theoretical physicist especialized in the field curebot are people who dont engage with the job systems as such their opinion doesnt show the reality as well as someone who has engaged heavily with said systems. That already happened in december when some less experienced people were saying that sge felt weak in dungeons and lo and behold with literally 0 changes currently sits as the best healer for dungeons.

3-The problem of those that you mentioned is that they are far less frequent than they should have, toxicon is basically downtime only and outside aoe is not a dps gain so in bosses or raids you usually get 3 (maybe more if there is downtime) and you may or may not use them, pneuma is the same but worse, lacks interactions its 2m cd makes it too long for a consistent rotation and its only a gain in aoe, phlegma is the best of the 3 and even with that 45s cd makes it so it barely breaks the monothony of dosis spam (page 26 again)

4.1-No, simply no especially when tanks can solo casual content, I dont know if you lack of experience makes you think otherwise but tanks carry the same responsibility healers do in more subtle ways, good boss positioning, good mitigation, mechanic execution and more dps. Healers on the other hand are nowhere as reactionary as you say, a good healer will plan the heals and cooldowns to maximize their effect the same way tanks do with their cooldowns, all the damage in the game is scripted after all.

4.2-Both exs have been cleared with tank sustain only, all the max level dungeons have been soloed with tanks and are farmed on a daily basis with a tank+3dps formation, the current first floor of savage have been cleared with tanks only, Ucob has been cleared with only tanks, either you do not know how much self sustain tanks have or are hugely overestimating what healers do

Why everyone thinks we are asking for super complex roles? We just want more stuff to do it doesnt have to be a blm rotation with 20 lines of optimization but ffs we're spamming rn a single button hundreds of times per instance for the 3rd year staight and the devs refuse to give us something to do, that gets old fast

[Ixon]

snip 1

1- The difference between any good or bad player is mostly button pressing and Crit chance.
2- Comparing FF to quantum physics. And if you think one post of people saying SGE was weak in dungeons had any sway, when there are about 100 posts from healers and DRK's about other issues, idk bout that one. SGE is strong because it's the most recent job which historically are the better designed. Plus, SGE and RPR are the expansion jobs which historically are strong out the gate.
3- Didn't say SGE was perfect, just said I think it's a step in the right direction with having a more interesting DPS kit compared to the other healers regardless of it's frequency. Can it be improved? Probably.
4.1- Good boss positioning? Two out of four of the fights don't require boss positioning and they all re-center themselves at timed intervals. Mitigation? Here is one for the auto's, invlun for the tank buster, rinse and repeat, and every 90sec and 60sec I can help with an AoE. Mechanic execution? Everyone does mechanics... Reactionary? Right, because when someone dies the tanks raise them. Or when someone eats damage and gets a vuln stack before an AoE, it's usually the tanks that heal them to full. HoC will not save someone if they are half HP with a vuln stack and a spicy AoE goes out. I know. I have tried lol. You are talking about a 100% scripted encounter and not including the random bits of mistakes that usually the healers have to make up for.
4.2 Both EX's where NOT cleared with Tank sustain only, they were cleared with tank sustain, 4 stacks of Curing Walts(that heals for quite a bit), 4 Shield Samba's, 4 Improvisation's, 2 Arcan Crests, and broken RPR damage. There are two roads, what is a challenge for fun, and what's optimal. No healer runs are NOT optimal, hence why they are only done as a CHALLANGE. And I have stated in the past that the EX trials were undertuned. Please don't mention P1N that takes over an hour with no enrage...
I'm not saying healers can't have a slightly more complex DPS rotation. Just pointing out people are 1. Misquoting what Yoshi said entirely and 2. Need to keep all players, from hardcore to casual, and all content, from dungeons to ultimates in mind. I do not believe(despite what people have been saying on the forums) that either the dev team or Yoshi is purposefully waging a war against healer fun. They have their reasons that I can only assume based off what we have been told, and based of the direction the game has gone.

snip 2

1- You are confusing reactionary as Regen vs Shield healers. I am saying how someone in your group steps in the bad and you have to react and spot heal before the next AoE kills them, or spot raise and heal them up.
2- Tanks have to deal with tankbusters(that are usually invulned), and boss movement(which was only a thing in P3S and P4S Part1, but very minor usually albeit some specific fights). Healer have to heal the tank busters, heal the AoE's, heal the dead, and are usually the ones doing out mechanics, towers, tethers, etc.

[WaxSw]

Snip

1-Go and say that to a blm who has a fuck ton of line of optimization, or a sam who has to manage filler to align with raid buffs, a nin who can optimize their ninjustsus to get uptime a rdm that has to manage procs with melee combo, that differentiation of pressing buttons or not is a healer problem that do not happen in other roles

2-Its not only forums in other social media there were people saying that but THATS THE POINT, people were saying bullshit that does not represent the reality due to lack of knowledge, same happens with curebots and why what they say should have a much lesser value than what more experienced players say, because the knowledge they have does not represent the reality.

3-Go to the images I posted pls, watch how "different" is from other healers, sge has good points and for pulls if played casually can feel different than other healers, past that is the same.

4.1-LOL, ok you dont know about good mitigation then, optimal alignment of mitigation is key, reducing damage as much as possible to no exhaust healing resources fast, there are tank exclusive mechanics like the tankswaps, add management, picking tethers (p3s), in the same way healers have to do their own shit. Someone dies and healer have to rez? Thats pressing one button to pick them up and in normal content people can stay dead for a while to be rez when the moment comes, if an MT dies you better pray for the OT grab the aggro quick with provoke, if someone gets hit you just throw him an ogcd heal of the super bloated kit every has and its done. Mistakes do not hurt in normal mode cause is braindead and in hard modes theyre either death sentences (which can mean a wipe) that can be recovered with the press of a button or simply ignored cause the outcoming damage is so low is laughable, you're really making it sound way harder than it really is when healers do barely need to heal, once again look at the cast I posted.

4.2-Still speaks about how low the healing requirements are when the tank sustain + dps sustain is more than enough to compensate for what a healers should have to do, and I havent mentioned P1n I've mentioned P1S which has been cleared with a party of 8 tanks, not only that but exs are consistently being farmed with 1 healer max cause its more optimal that way, healing is not hard and barely required and well ofc the whole War+3dps has been the dungeon speedrun meta for the 3rd year straight, tank healing is not low.

The Dev team is simply out of touch with how healers work, this is not a war against healer fun or doing that "for the casuals" anymore this is straight up "we do not know what to do" like when they designed the dumbing down of healers in Shb which no one asked for, how they removed ED from Sch in 5.0 breaking the kit even tough we told them and had to be added back in 5.05, how they nerfed energy drain later on so "Sch uses aetherflow heals more" completely missing the point cause Sch didnt use more aetherflow heals with that, how YoshiP said back in SB that they nerfed Sch cause they made their cohealer heal more when the logs showed that Sch was the highest hps healer or stuff like how this expansion broke Whm mp economy with an unasked thin air change and missery did not acount for the increased damage of glare 3 or how holy 3 did not get the reduction cast every single healer damage spell got. However this is not a misinterpretation of YoshiP to begin with, he said that but the question they read was misinterpreted (with or without malice) as it wasnt asking for difficulty but engagement and as said previously, more downtime options would only help, if people is casual they can still do they cure1 2 and medicas and keep up while they can, midcore audience have something to strive for and hardcore players have engaging gameplay in all bits of content, the only people fucked would be those who just want to play healer cause that way they can play hard content without putting effort.

[Deceptus]

The Dev team is simply out of touch with how healers work, this is not a war against healer fun or doing that "for the casuals" anymore this is straight up "we do not know what to do" like when they designed the dumbing down of healers in Shb which no one asked for, how they removed ED from Sch in 5.0 breaking the kit even tought we told them and had to be added back in 5.05, how they nerfed energy drain later on so "Sch uses aetherflow heals more" completely missing the point cause Sch didnt use more aetherflow heals with that, how YoshiP said back in SB that they nerfed Sch cause they made their cohealer heal more when the logs showed that Sch was the highest hps healer or stuff like how this expansion broke Whm mp economy with an unasked thin air change and missery did not acount for the increased damage of glare 3 or how holy 3 did not get the reduction cast every single healer damage spell got

Re: Holy 3 (And Gravity 2 as well)

You want a prime example of why certain healers think that the Developers really have no idea on what to do with healers?

The fact they created flashy new animations for Holy 3 and Gravity 2 and put a whoppint 10 POTENCY increase on them.

Here's your brand new ability that is barely better than your old one!

[AnotherPerson]

1- No? You increase the gap between the ceiling and floor across any job you increase the number of people who cannot perform that job optimally. The harder the job, the easier it is to suck at it, the worse the experience with other players will be. People cannot even do the basics of most jobs currently, to include, but not limited to, 2-1-1-1-1-1. Do you have to bow to the whim of them? No, but it IS a factor to keep in mind when you are talking about the overall balance of the game.

2- Yes, even Cure bots have a voice, even if it's not a wildly accepted one. No one has the right to discredit one opinion over another in a game meant for everyone.

3- Button interaction with others is good. I thoroughly enjoy the minigame of Eukrasian Diagnosis for Toxicons for dungeon pulls, or using Pnema for heals and DPS, or Phlegma for mobility and DPS. More of those on the other kits would be a good thing, no argument there.

4.1 Tanks have more in-depth rotations because they carry less responsibility than healers while also not having to be as reactionary. At least that makes sense to me.

4.2 Yes, tanks have better sustain. Still need a healer for a lot of fights. And I whole-heartedly disagree that tanks and healers have an equal amount of responsibility.

Yes, people should strive to enjoy the job they like in whatever content as long as they are keeping every piece of content and every player in mind. It is difficult to make a job more intricate on a boring fight and less intricate on a fight requiring more of your attention. There IS a middle ground, it just needs to be found.

1. Content where players don't need to perform optimally already exists - it's normal content. Not every DPS, tank, or healer is expected to perform optimally there. There's no enrage, and the barrier to entry is as low as it can get. No normal content requires healer DPS to make the check - just as no normal content requires all the DPS to be playing stellar to beat the enemies.

And if optimization was really a concern, they could really just nerf tank gameplay to 1 button DPS rotation as well so they have an "easier" time in high-end content and in normal mode content to completely focus on mitigations only. You don't see that happening because... more difficult content is supposed to require the players to optimize and play better to contribute more to the team. Plus, tanks will be bored out of their minds until something new happens.

But this isn't what this thread is focused on. This thread is focused on increasing depth for those who can and want to feel engaged. Any players who does normal content should still be able to feel engaged with their entire toolkit since the normal content IS the main focus of the game.

2. Saying curebots have a voice is equivalent to saying tanks who don't want to use their full mitigation tools have a voice, or DPS who doesn't want to use their DPS abilities have a voice.

Sure, they have a voice, but no one is going to take them seriously for gameplay depth if they're neglecting a portion of their toolkit that's beneficial. Their opinion caters to the low-end spectrum of the ease and availability of the game, not the mid or upper tier spectrum where players are fully utilizing their toolkits. High-end gameplay is not what are designed for players who don't want to fully utilize and optimize their entire toolkit.

If curebots are happy with the engagement of just healing in normal mode content, then more power to them. However, that's no reason to not give healers more engaging toolkits. The most simple compromise is always DPS skills - curebots lose nothing with new DPS skills since they're already not playing optimally in the first place and don't gain any more responsibility that they already neglected. Healers who want to do something more in normal content for more engagement will get something extra.


4.1 That makes no sense. Tanks have to both position the boss (when mechanics happen and require them to reposition them), interrupt casts when applicable, aggro swap (provoke/shirk), and mitigate before tankbusters and raidwides happen. Jobs with additional healing /mitigation support like WAR/DRK/PLD/GNB (Nascent Flash/Shake it off /The Blackest Night/ Dark Missionary /Heart of Corundum / Heart of Light / Aurora) can also target party members/co-tank, so they're also watching the party's status bar and the boss's cast bar like healers are. They are just as reactionary as the healers since they have to watch and plan ahead. All while having more things to do.

Healers just have to watch the party's status bar, watch the boss's next skill, and press 1-1-1-1-1-1 until the party's status bar drops, and then heal.

[IDontPetLalas]

Point 1- It would impact me as I would feel the need to hit those buttons even if it forced me to play unoptimally, for my desire and want to perform well. I do not just forgo a button just cause I don't like it. There ARE those who do not press all of there buttons, I am not them and there are others like me.
Point 2- I never mentioned people who leveled a job and forget it. I mentioned people who play a job or role casually. There are people who even casually main a job, they are not exclusive. Feedback is important from every demographic, and the ones with the most people(usually the casuals) are the loudest.
Point 3- Fair on the dps point. If you want one or two extra buttons to make the normal mode fights more engaging then by all means.
Point 4- Equating a tanks responsibility to stand and point a boss north to the responsibility of a healer in any given fight is a bit of a odd. PLD various rotations? Cover?! Healing skills, like what, Clemency? Who uses that in any meaningful way that normally doesn't get them yelled at by their healer lol. No one is calling you stupid, I know for a fact SOME people are missing the point. It's ok to disagree, that's how discussions work to improve things for everyone.
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small snip for length

1- You mentioned that you play healer one hour per week. forgive me, you may be an exceptional player, however most people who invest a small portion of their time on one job lack the ability to assess all of its potential or how various kills should synergize, or how its toolkit should interact. i am not at all saying that you should be left out of the people who need to be considered, it is a factor , but I would recognize that someone who put a very low investment could/should have some struggles in comparison to someone who invests more time into the role. That goes to a button that you could forget because you just don't play the job enough, or a proc that could be meaningless to you (if designers end up going that route). Would that likely wipe a party? In normal content? i really doubt it. if so , i mean if you (meaning the casual you) who hasn't played the job in a week, and has never read your tooltips- well frankly, that should not hold the rest of us back.
I'm going to go straight to the rest of your comments. this has nothing to do with:
- a new expansion. Many of these comments date from just after Heavensward.
-remarks that have to do with raiding when many people are repeating to a lack of engagement, which may involve raiding, or may have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with raiding at all.
I really believe that you keep repeating this because you do not main a healer. i am in no way stating that you cannot or should not hold an opinion because you d not main a healer. I am saying that you have a very different opinion, and that you do not understand some of us that main healers.