Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Ixon]

I mean this as respectfully as possible:

Adding extra buttons in either support or damage would affect casuals in almost zero ways as they probably wouldn't use them.

In the same vein that most DPS never touch Addle, Feint, Shield Samba (or the MCH/BRD equivalent), Magic Barrier, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Peloton, Sprint etc etc etc.

They literally made the jobs simpler from HW because too many people complained how difficult it was. Would adding one or two hurt? Probably not(like I stated before), but there is a threshold. That's why they were changed from HW in the first place.

[SeverianLyonesse]

They literally made the jobs simpler from HW because too many people complained how difficult it was. Would adding one or two hurt? Probably not(like I stated before), but there is a threshold. That's why they were changed from HW in the first place.

I'm basically only advocating for a couple of extra buttons. Just something to better break up the monotony of spamming 1 a dozen times in a row.

Also, the current job design and balance is substantially different than it was in HW. Even the overall expectation of party members is different now that everything has been categorized into roles.

[Ixon]

I'm basically only advocating for a couple of extra buttons. Just something to better break up the monotony of spamming 1 a dozen times in a row.

Also, the current job design and balance is substantially different than it was in HW. Even the overall expectation of party members is different now that everything has been categorized into roles.

Which I completely understand. I think they did fairly well with SGE in that regard. The balance is different but for the most part the roles are still fairly the same. The only thing that has changed is the power creep. Each expansion everyone wants each job to feel better and more powerful, and after a couple expansions the power creep has made semi-bloated kits that have healers suffering the most. They could nerf tank sustain and add an extra dps button to each healer, but I feel they would still be as bored in the Normal and Savage content unless the content itself was also looked at. You would also make players that can barely do the bare minimum worse, increasing the gap between skill floor and ceiling, making each solo queued instance into randoms statistically a worse experience. Things could be improved for sure, I'm not saying to NOT change them. I hate being bored in content almost as much as I hate repeated wipes and slow runs because of the people who can barely handle their kits as they are now. Somewhere there is a happy middle ground.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Which I completely understand. I think they did fairly well with SGE in that regard. The balance is different but for the most part the roles are still fairly the same. The only thing that has changed is the power creep. Each expansion everyone wants each job to feel better and more powerful, and after a couple expansions the power creep has made semi-bloated kits that have healers suffering the most. They could nerf tank sustain and add an extra dps button to each healer, but I feel they would still be as bored in the Normal and Savage content unless the content itself was also looked at. You would also make players that can barely do the bare minimum worse, increasing the gap between skill floor and ceiling, making each solo queued instance into randoms statistically a worse experience. Things could be improved for sure, I'm not saying to NOT change them. I hate being bored in content almost as much as I hate repeated wipes and slow runs because of the people who can barely handle their kits as they are now. Somewhere there is a happy middle ground.

I don't think this is a fair argument, though.

Quite frequently when I'm running dungeons the tank is undergeared and/or not popping cooldowns. They see their DPS brrr buttons and focus mostly on that. By that logic, tanks should be given only one DPS button so they can focus on enmity and mitigation.

Not to mention, there are *already* plenty of healers who DPS greed and don't do their job. I don't think adding a 1-2 combo, a debuff ability, or a proc would impact things much.

That's just a power creep issue. They couldn't make Holy 3 and Gravity 2 twice the potency of their counterpart because it's not like healers have a dps kit to shave numbers off to justify the increase. For the other jobs that was the case, it was even a meme on jobs like SAM or DRG because they made certain abilities comically low potency for what they were to make room for the new skills. They can't just add and add and add because that's what lead to the stat squish we got this expansion.

Power creep or not, it feels bad.

[Ixon]

I don't think this is a fair argument, though.

Quite frequently when I'm running dungeons the tank is undergeared and/or not popping cooldowns. They see their DPS brrr buttons and focus mostly on that. By that logic, tanks should be given only one DPS button so they can focus on enmity and mitigation.

Not to mention, there are *already* plenty of healers who DPS greed and don't do their job. I don't think adding a 1-2 combo, a debuff ability, or a proc would impact things much.



Power creep or not, it feels bad.

There is no "Focus on Emnity" anymore, there hasn't really been since SB. Again, could healers have slightly more engaging DPS? Probably. Just have to keep in mind for the sake of balance and button bloat things would have to either get combined or removed, so SE would have to figure that out. The power creep can feel bad, but there isn't a lot of choice. I'd actually be curious if anybody figured out another way other than having in two expansions bosses having Lost Ark levels of HP(it's like Quintillions or something ridiculously high) and players doing a million damage. When you are making a job, or designing job changes for a new expansion, you want them to generally make the player FEEL stronger. Usually jobs get a shiny new DPS button, tanks get more defensive stuff, healers get more healing stuff. This has unfortunately caused tanks to feel overpowered in their sustain, and healers to feel they have bloated kits. And when it comes to DPS, they have to scrape off the damage from other abilities to fit in the new one to again, not have millions of damage going out by a single player. Plus, they can't NOT add anything to a new job, because those jobs will feel left out. So the task at hand is to add new things to each job, to make them feel like an improvement(you can argue on which job hit or missed that mark), while not bloating the kits, or bloating the values. Whether it was intentional or not, the healing and tanking does feel overtuned for what we have been given, that I can agree on. We will have to see if the changes in 6.1 and next raid tier reflect that.

[SeverianLyonesse]

There is no "Focus on Emnity" anymore, there hasn't really been since SB. Again, could healers have slightly more engaging DPS? Probably. Just have to keep in mind for the sake of balance and button bloat things would have to either get combined or removed, so SE would have to figure that out. The power creep can feel bad, but there isn't a lot of choice. I'd actually be curious if anybody figured out another way other than having in two expansions bosses having Lost Ark levels of HP(it's like Quintillions or something ridiculously high) and players doing a million damage. When you are making a job, or designing job changes for a new expansion, you want them to generally make the player FEEL stronger. Usually jobs get a shiny new DPS button, tanks get more defensive stuff, healers get more healing stuff. This has unfortunately caused tanks to feel overpowered in their sustain, and healers to feel they have bloated kits. And when it comes to DPS, they have to scrape off the damage from other abilities to fit in the new one to again, not have millions of damage going out by a single player. Plus, they can't NOT add anything to a new job, because those jobs will feel left out. So the task at hand is to add new things to each job, to make them feel like an improvement(you can argue on which job hit or missed that mark), while not bloating the kits, or bloating the values. Whether it was intentional or not, the healing and tanking does feel overtuned for what we have been given, that I can agree on. We will have to see if the changes in 6.1 and next raid tier reflect that.

I don't disagree with you in most respects and I appreciate your thoughtful inputs on the matter.

I will disagree sliiiightly on "focus on enmity", in that while the tanks *should* have a harder time maintaining enmity, plenty of tanks still screw it up.

I will also observe that I think the job kits are approaching a "final" state. The casters especially feel pretty complete, minus one or two final upgrades/ finales. IMO, the direction they *should* take job design is to add another ten levels to round things out. And from then on, instead of leveling and adding new abilities, just have a few quests every expansion that *only* upgrade abilities. Unless we somehow switch to a longer rotation/burst cycle on every encounter (which is possible), I just agree that tacking on more abilities just isn't a good direction to be taking job design anymore.