Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Ixon]

While I am not disagreeing with any healers sentiment for more of a challenge with their jobs both healing and dps wise, I feel a lot of people are missing the wide scope this game caters to that leads to what we have today. The game, from a business and therefore profit standpoint, must cater to as many people as possible. This is from the less than 8 hour a week casuals(which do make enough of a significant portion to be counted), and the 40+ hour week hardcore players. Now I consider myself a semi-hardcore tank main, and I find tanking to be boring at times, with not enough to challenge my ability to tank even in the most recent raid tier and often find myself asking for more within my job and role.

However, I am a casual when it comes to healing. I do it only every once in a while when I am bored, and only really enjoy playing SGE. With that in mind, even doing the very simple dungeons we have received this expansion and the 1 button damage, 1 button dot that most healer kits have, I find it(from a casual audience point of view), just enough to keep me engaged. Now this is on SGE, which has more DPS options and some tech with Eukrasian Diagnosis for dungeons, but for someone like me, that's all I could ever want. Anymore would be a bit much for someone who still wants to do a good job even on a job/role that I am mediocre with(dropped dot? not me). I say this because as a healer, you are the only role that has a responsibility for EVERY mechanic. Every movement mechanic you have to plan around as a caster, each tank buster you are helping out your tank plus the autos they take, and every AoE that goes out is your responsibility(tanks help too but only if one of their two abilities Reprisal and AoE option(or two with PLD) are up). Not to mention the healer role is the only real reactionary role. Sure a tank can toss out one thing here or there, a caster can raise, a DPS can provide a heal or buff; but when it comes down to someone dying, someone taking unnecessary damage, someone collecting vuln stacks, or needing an emergency esuna/heal up, that's all on the healer role for the most part.

Now, I understand fully, I really do, how healing can be an absolute snooze fest in scripted content with competent members, over geared teammates, and under tuned fights. I talk about it with my healers all the time. However, going back to my first point, each job is made with every player in mind, for every piece of content. I personally think SGE should be the standard for healers, having enough DPS options and an(in my mind) engaging toolkit that is fun for both casuals and more veteran players in most content. Though in the same vein(and this is where I will most likely be shot) I do not think it would be healthy for the game and players as a whole to go back to HW levels of DPS busy on healers as it would have a negative impact on the casual side of that role.

Let me be clear, any job is boring if the content is easy. I don't even enjoy doing dungeons or Normal modes on my main(GNB) as much and sometimes prefer doing them on a DPS or Healer that I am not as comfortable with so I am more engaged. I do not find that to be a fault in the design of the jobs or even the dungeons(though I do wish you could pull more than just two mobs pls SE) knowing that dungeons are usually the easiest form of content along with the Normal modes. Now for a first Savage tier, as a tank it was ok. Some parts were fun(I actually like Pinax), and some like the entirety of P1S were Chadarnook levels of boring. But I also know Savage is not the hardest content, that is reserved for the Ultimates. Normal is the easy, Savage is the medium, Ultimate is the hard. I feel that is how I should be tested as a player based off that model and how others should be tested as well. No one should be looking at Normal modes as any sort of basis as they are generally boring for every job regardless, though I can agree that perhaps there should have been more things to heal up specifically in P1N, same with the EX1 and EX2. Now according to Yoshi, they were playing it safer for a first tier like they have since SB, and we SHOULD see an increase in difficulty next raid tier, which remains to be seen.

Healers have the most responsibility and are the most reactionary role. Having(to an extent) a simple rotation is purely for casual healers(like myself) to be able to perform their healing duties and contribute to DPS while not being buried in the necessity to preform a more complex DPS rotation. This is good for the casuals in the casual content. It is completely understandable that it leaves more hardcore players wanting more. However, adding too much more to the healer DPS kit(a little wouldn't hurt, agreed) would be detrimental to the casuals in casual content. Therefore, I am of the opinion that the change should come from the harder content the casuals are not doing, to receive the satisfaction all roles are looking for. Which is where I believe the statement of doing an ultimate is stemming from. From understanding that the jobs need to be made for casuals to do casual content from a business standpoint, and that players should look at the harder content for the fulfillment they desire. Of course there is always room to improve and make adjustments, the devs have always made questionable design choices in the past, I just think a lot of people miss the point being made by Yoshi and the team.

[Deceptus]

Normal is the easy, Savage is the medium, Ultimate is the hard.

EX is supposed to be the medium, savage is supposed to be hard and Ultimate is supposed to be insane. Your statement kind of shows how watered down everything has become to appeal to the masses.

Healers have the most responsibility and are the most reactionary role. Having(to an extent) a simple rotation is purely for casual healers(like myself) to be able to perform their healing duties and contribute to DPS while not being buried in the necessity to preform a more complex DPS rotation. This is good for the casuals in the casual content. It is completely understandable that it leaves more hardcore players wanting more. However, adding too much more to the healer DPS kit(a little wouldn't hurt, agreed) would be detrimental to the casuals in casual content. Therefore, I am of the opinion that the change should come from the harder content the casuals are not doing, to receive the satisfaction all roles are looking for. Which is where I believe the statement of doing an ultimate is stemming from. From understanding that the jobs need to be made for casuals to do casual content from a business standpoint, and that players should look at the harder content for the fulfillment they desire. Of course there is always room to improve and make adjustments, the devs have always made questionable design choices in the past, I just think a lot of people miss the point being made by Yoshi and the team.

I mean this as respectfully as possible:

Adding extra buttons in either support or damage would affect casuals in almost zero ways as they probably wouldn't use them.

In the same vein that most DPS never touch Addle, Feint, Shield Samba (or the MCH/BRD equivalent), Magic Barrier, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Peloton, Sprint etc etc etc.

[Ixon]

I mean this as respectfully as possible:

Adding extra buttons in either support or damage would affect casuals in almost zero ways as they probably wouldn't use them.

In the same vein that most DPS never touch Addle, Feint, Shield Samba (or the MCH/BRD equivalent), Magic Barrier, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Peloton, Sprint etc etc etc.

They literally made the jobs simpler from HW because too many people complained how difficult it was. Would adding one or two hurt? Probably not(like I stated before), but there is a threshold. That's why they were changed from HW in the first place.

[SeverianLyonesse]

They literally made the jobs simpler from HW because too many people complained how difficult it was. Would adding one or two hurt? Probably not(like I stated before), but there is a threshold. That's why they were changed from HW in the first place.

I'm basically only advocating for a couple of extra buttons. Just something to better break up the monotony of spamming 1 a dozen times in a row.

Also, the current job design and balance is substantially different than it was in HW. Even the overall expectation of party members is different now that everything has been categorized into roles.

[Ixon]

I'm basically only advocating for a couple of extra buttons. Just something to better break up the monotony of spamming 1 a dozen times in a row.

Also, the current job design and balance is substantially different than it was in HW. Even the overall expectation of party members is different now that everything has been categorized into roles.

Which I completely understand. I think they did fairly well with SGE in that regard. The balance is different but for the most part the roles are still fairly the same. The only thing that has changed is the power creep. Each expansion everyone wants each job to feel better and more powerful, and after a couple expansions the power creep has made semi-bloated kits that have healers suffering the most. They could nerf tank sustain and add an extra dps button to each healer, but I feel they would still be as bored in the Normal and Savage content unless the content itself was also looked at. You would also make players that can barely do the bare minimum worse, increasing the gap between skill floor and ceiling, making each solo queued instance into randoms statistically a worse experience. Things could be improved for sure, I'm not saying to NOT change them. I hate being bored in content almost as much as I hate repeated wipes and slow runs because of the people who can barely handle their kits as they are now. Somewhere there is a happy middle ground.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Which I completely understand. I think they did fairly well with SGE in that regard. The balance is different but for the most part the roles are still fairly the same. The only thing that has changed is the power creep. Each expansion everyone wants each job to feel better and more powerful, and after a couple expansions the power creep has made semi-bloated kits that have healers suffering the most. They could nerf tank sustain and add an extra dps button to each healer, but I feel they would still be as bored in the Normal and Savage content unless the content itself was also looked at. You would also make players that can barely do the bare minimum worse, increasing the gap between skill floor and ceiling, making each solo queued instance into randoms statistically a worse experience. Things could be improved for sure, I'm not saying to NOT change them. I hate being bored in content almost as much as I hate repeated wipes and slow runs because of the people who can barely handle their kits as they are now. Somewhere there is a happy middle ground.

I don't think this is a fair argument, though.

Quite frequently when I'm running dungeons the tank is undergeared and/or not popping cooldowns. They see their DPS brrr buttons and focus mostly on that. By that logic, tanks should be given only one DPS button so they can focus on enmity and mitigation.

Not to mention, there are *already* plenty of healers who DPS greed and don't do their job. I don't think adding a 1-2 combo, a debuff ability, or a proc would impact things much.

That's just a power creep issue. They couldn't make Holy 3 and Gravity 2 twice the potency of their counterpart because it's not like healers have a dps kit to shave numbers off to justify the increase. For the other jobs that was the case, it was even a meme on jobs like SAM or DRG because they made certain abilities comically low potency for what they were to make room for the new skills. They can't just add and add and add because that's what lead to the stat squish we got this expansion.

Power creep or not, it feels bad.

[Ixon]

I don't think this is a fair argument, though.

Quite frequently when I'm running dungeons the tank is undergeared and/or not popping cooldowns. They see their DPS brrr buttons and focus mostly on that. By that logic, tanks should be given only one DPS button so they can focus on enmity and mitigation.

Not to mention, there are *already* plenty of healers who DPS greed and don't do their job. I don't think adding a 1-2 combo, a debuff ability, or a proc would impact things much.



Power creep or not, it feels bad.

There is no "Focus on Emnity" anymore, there hasn't really been since SB. Again, could healers have slightly more engaging DPS? Probably. Just have to keep in mind for the sake of balance and button bloat things would have to either get combined or removed, so SE would have to figure that out. The power creep can feel bad, but there isn't a lot of choice. I'd actually be curious if anybody figured out another way other than having in two expansions bosses having Lost Ark levels of HP(it's like Quintillions or something ridiculously high) and players doing a million damage. When you are making a job, or designing job changes for a new expansion, you want them to generally make the player FEEL stronger. Usually jobs get a shiny new DPS button, tanks get more defensive stuff, healers get more healing stuff. This has unfortunately caused tanks to feel overpowered in their sustain, and healers to feel they have bloated kits. And when it comes to DPS, they have to scrape off the damage from other abilities to fit in the new one to again, not have millions of damage going out by a single player. Plus, they can't NOT add anything to a new job, because those jobs will feel left out. So the task at hand is to add new things to each job, to make them feel like an improvement(you can argue on which job hit or missed that mark), while not bloating the kits, or bloating the values. Whether it was intentional or not, the healing and tanking does feel overtuned for what we have been given, that I can agree on. We will have to see if the changes in 6.1 and next raid tier reflect that.

[Absimiliard]

EX is supposed to be the medium, savage is supposed to be hard and Ultimate is supposed to be insane. Your statement kind of shows how watered down everything has become to appeal to the masses.

Except EX has always been a cakewalk, savage has ranged from braindead easy to actually killing statics depending on expansion and raid tier, and ultimate, despite hardly anyone bothering to do it, generally isn't any more difficult than savage.

[IDontPetLalas]

While I am not disagreeing with any healers sentiment for more of a challenge with their jobs both healing and dps wise,
However, I am a casual when it comes to healing. I do it only every once in a while when I am bored,
Now, I understand fully, I really do, how healing can be an absolute snooze fest in scripted content with competent members, over geared teammates, and under tuned fights. I talk about it with my healers all the time. However, going back to my first point, each job is made with every player in mind, for every piece of content.

Let me be clear, any job is boring if the content is easy.

Healers have the most responsibility and are the most reactionary role. Having(to an extent) a simple rotation is purely for casual healers(like myself) to be able to perform their healing duties and contribute to DPS while not being buried in the necessity to preform a more complex DPS rotation.Of course there is always room to improve and make adjustments, the devs have always made questionable design choices in the past, I just think a lot of people miss the point being made by Yoshi and the team.

*snip for length*
Point 1- If you play a healer one hour a week, quite a few of the changes that healers mains are asking for wouldn't impact you. I'll give you an example- IF the option to add more DPS functions was added in, the chances are are you would not use them- I wouldn't expect you to, and no one can harass you under the TOS.

point 2- is it fair to restrict functions based upon those people who level a job and forget it? I would say no. Listen to those people who actually main those jobs.

Point 3- No, not all jobs are boring if the content is easy. Healers are the ONLY jobs that hit 1 button for literally 90% of the time. Saying "do ultimate or savage " is BS. Many players aren't interested in that content, you are conflating engagement with difficulty.

Point 4 - healers have responsibility, however so do other roles. If you as the tank decide to point a cleave at me, the healer - well then I can tell you that things are going to go bad very quickly. So YOU have quite a bit of responsibility. Somehow, no one worries that (for example) paladins need to keep up various rotations while simultaneously positioning the boss, performing a tank swap, rotating CDs, perhaps using healing skills, using cover, etc. We aren't missing Yoshi's point. We are not stupid. we disagree.

Finally, your "talking with your healers" just comes off as being rather condescending, even if was well-intended. We don't need a mouthpiece, playing a support job should not be construed as being infantile, there are hundreds of posts from healer mains. The "just do ultimate" really was extremely dismissive, I really don't want to be rude, but no other class/jobs gets that attitude.

[Ixon]

*snip for length*

Point 1- It would impact me as I would feel the need to hit those buttons even if it forced me to play unoptimally, for my desire and want to perform well. I do not just forgo a button just cause I don't like it. There ARE those who do not press all of there buttons, I am not them and there are others like me.

Point 2- I never mentioned people who leveled a job and forget it. I mentioned people who play a job or role casually. There are people who even casually main a job, they are not exclusive. Feedback is important from every demographic, and the ones with the most people(usually the casuals) are the loudest.

Point 3- Fair on the dps point. If you want one or two extra buttons to make the normal mode fights more engaging then by all means.

Point 4- Equating a tanks responsibility to stand and point a boss north to the responsibility of a healer in any given fight is a bit of a odd. PLD various rotations? Cover?! Healing skills, like what, Clemency? Who uses that in any meaningful way that normally doesn't get them yelled at by their healer lol. No one is calling you stupid, I know for a fact SOME people are missing the point. It's ok to disagree, that's how discussions work to improve things for everyone.

I have absolutely no idea why having conversations with other career healers is condescending. Is that not a good thing? To get the viewpoint from as many people directly affected?

The full quote, by the way, is: "I want to emphasize that we've done the same as we did in every previous expansion here. And that at the start of the expansion we sort of hold back on the difficulty of the raid in terms of damage taken and damage dealt and that sort of stuff. We make it a little bit easier so that as many people as possible can clear. You are probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in 5.4, but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we are still balancing things. We want to give people a chance to clear if they possibly can. And then from this point we will raise the challenge level in part two and part three of Pandemonium. I think even at that point if you're still unsatisfied, thinking healing is too easy and I want to feel more like a proper healer. Definitely try the ultimate content and suffer."

After going back and writing down what was translated myself, so many people are just grabbing what they want and blasting it out. It literally says the expansion is new, we are still tweaking jobs, this raid was easy like most first expansion raids are, the raids will get harder, after that, if you want more of a healing challenge, go try Ultimate. That last bit can be meant for every job in every role as well. For real though, provide feedback. That's fine. Disagree with the direction of healing, that's fine. Make suggestions on how things should be, that's fine. But do not discredit peoples opinions because you feel they are beneath your own, take them as an opinion, agree or disagree, and go from there. This game is supposed to be designed with everyone in mind.