Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Absimiliard]

It depends on the context. Of the two accepted definitions of stable time loop, one does indeed allow for a self-sustaining cycle wherein an event or events will continue ad infinitum unless disrupted. I would contend that this is indeed one such event. The timeline "we" currently inhabit would, as observed, be a derivative timeline spawned successfully as a result of the loop. Someone going back to foul up the time loop would simply create another tangent timeline as opposed to damaging the one in which the game is presently set.

It does result in a unsatisfying "where did ideas come from" question if knowledge gets passed from the future to the past and then relied upon in setting up that future, which is why I maintain in this case that we either shouldn't have spoken the whole truth, instead concealing the specific roles that the others would play, or that Venat should have lost her memory with the others.

A bootstrap paradox. The most unsatisfying and mind screwy variant of the stable time loop, in my opinion.

[thegreatonemal]

I don't think he needs to 'try again' since his sources and the overall context fit very with what Lauront is outlining where Tempering is concerned.

It's also deceptive framing since not all the sources linked in the lengthy post are from before the point of Zodiark's summoning which makes me question if the post was even read on anything but a surface level.

I don't want to unintentionally spoil anything if you're not all caught up with the MSQ's but have you done the story content that Slater is referencing, here:

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context. The debate is over if they sacrifice more lives to bring back the people who gave up their lives. Nothing here suggest that the tempered are resisting Zodiark.
I'm caught up on the msq and comparing a dragon to ancients is not the best comparison. She is one of the strongest beings on the planet and we fully don't understand how they work. Also this person is leaving out that Tiamat didn't look to the primal as a god but an equal partner which they speculate why she retains all of her will. This is not the case with the ancients. The only reason she actually wants to stay locked up is just in case meeting the primal again causes her to fall under its control. It's out of an abundance of cation

[Kozh]

Jesus why do we have to get so heated so quickly. I’m having a discussion and giving my viewpoint. Don’t like it, say I disagree. There’s no need to raise the temp.

Pure irony.

We’ll first whether she was “maintaining the time loop” remains unclear.

Dude, it's very clear she attempted to, at the very least, reach that time convergence. Even if it's not "all according to keikaku", her giving emet the chance to escape is proof of that.

And “working on her own peoples issues” was the Sundering. That was the point, heading down the path they were on would mean doom.

This doesn't make sense at all." working on her people issue" means helping those people to work past their problems, not wiping the slate clean. It's like we burn down uldah back then in ARR for being a corrupt nation and backstabbing the scions.

Yes, I’m sure she loved not being able to tell people. Probably was going “ohhohoho” while she did it.

Lose that attitude. Seriously. No one said she's enjoying it. I acknowledge she feels conflicted about it. But doesn't change that she made a bad questionable choice.

I mean, if they moved on I’d imagine they would then work out a way to defeat Meteion, probably with some form of the Sundering. And if they moved on afterwards they would already have the means to confront despair, considering they’d live imperfect, mortal lives with death an inevitability. The Rejoinings would only be needed if one was aiming to ensure the timelines were the same as you say, but once again whether that was the main intent is up in the air.

First, that rejoining is 100% sure something she knows need to happen and allow it. Otherwise the WoL might have not been born at all.

Second, the Ancients already have the power to overcome despair. Sacrificing half your population requires no small feat amount of conviction. Dynamis utilize all kind of energy after all.

And I ask again, how do you expect them to "move on" if they didn't even hear meteion report? They're race that's borderline immortal and very rarely died against their own free will. Saying things like "move on please" while not explaining the reason behind it is dumb. Why should they listen when they have the means to brought back their lost friends?

[Theodric]

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context.

The sources Lauront provided are not saying what you are portraying them as. You're free to read into them differently but the sources provided it make it pretty clear that Zodiark's Tempering was not the same sort of Tempering as that which the likes of Leviathan and Lakshmi were inflicting upon their followers, nor were the Convocation lacking the ability to make decisions that went against what Elidibus/Zodiark desired. We see this frequently throughout the game, such as when Nabriales gets hasty and puts his own plan into action and again when Fandaniel decides to hijack Zodiark. There's also Emet accompanying the player character and Scions throughout Norvrandt where he gives them information and even brings Y'shtola back from the 'dead'. None of which he would be able to do if he were bound entirely to Zodiark's will.

Perhaps most important, however, is the aspects in Lauront's post that outline that the Convocation itself was divided over how to handle the way forward where saving Etheirys was concerned. Again, something that would not happen if they were simply interested in feeding souls to Zodiark and nothing else. Elidibus took his leave of Zodiark and proved that, yes, actually, the Ancients really could bring back their loved ones.

They were also under no obligation to go along with what Venat was suggesting. We already know - thanks to hindsight - that her opposition to the third round of sacrifices was not based on the act of sacrifice itself so much as Meteion's report. Something she failed to outline to the Convocation in the first place. Perhaps if she had been open and honest she might have been able to convince her people to take a different path, though we'll never know as she never bothered to make every effort to save her civilisation and species from extinction. In actuality, she inflicted genocide upon every last man, woman and child amongst the Ancients and stripped away everything that made them into them. Then proceeded to support further acts of genocide in the name of her 'grand plan' which led to untold levels of suffering across the board.

[Lauront]

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context. The debate is over if they sacrifice more lives to bring back the people who gave up their lives. Nothing here suggest that the tempered are resisting Zodiark.

I am going to quote it and you can tell me what is "incorrect given the context" here:

Elidibus : Le Concile avait perdu sa cohésion... Face à l'anéantissement, les avis divergeaient sur la marche à suivre pour sauver notre planète…
= “The Council had lost its cohesion… Faced with annihilation, opinions differed on the way forward to save our planet…”
Elidibus : Ça ne leur ressemblait pas... Plus que jamais, ils avaient besoin d'Elidibus... Ils avaient besoin de moi... Alors, je me suis détaché de Zordiarche pour voler à leur secours...
= “It wasn’t like them… More than ever, they needed Elidibus… They needed me… So, I broke away from Zodiark to come to their aid…”
Elidibus : C'est ça... Chacun d'eux, je les aimais plus que tout... !
= “That’s it… Each of them, I loved them more than anything…!”

The scene from SoS it relates to is this. The corresponding incident detailed in Ere our curtain falls is this. This dialogue relates to when he had already become Zodiark, as per the bolded (and as per the EN equivalent), and the aforementioned loss of cohesion (strange if they were all a tempered hivemind as you claim) along with a divergence in opinions is what motivated him to withdraw himself - he even mentions detaching from him, in case that "faced with annihilation" is confusing you (it is meant in the sense of having experienced annihilation.)

You have claimed now repeatedly that others are "lying and twisting" things, and claimed emphatically that their tempering was responsible for their stance in spite of not a single source touching on this in respect of the sacrifices, as well as making allusions to other instances of tempering which are 1) either disanalogous to Zodiark as primals or 2) simply not consistent with recent lore (e.g. the Heavensward and their tempering.)

I'm caught up on the msq and comparing a dragon to ancients is not the best comparison. She is one of the strongest beings on the planet

Oh, you mean like one of those beings it took 8 champions, a further soul rejoining and loads of Lightwarden light to actually fell? Unsundered ancients have souls on a similar order of power. And we don't know all the ins and outs about them, either. Plus, as I pointed out, Zodiark was not summoned using the sort of rites that went into Bahamut and lacks the usual primal will. Tempering over time can change a person, especially if they fail to preserve both identity and memory, which is why taking what some of the Ascians were like 12k years later to infer what they were like just after summoning Zodiark is a silly idea.

Second, the Ancients already have the power to overcome despair. Sacrificing half your population requires no small feat amount of conviction. Dynamis utilize all kind of energy after all.

Indeed:

Wandering Minstrel
Oho, what manner of thrilling adventure might this be?
Good gods, a battle on the moon with Zodiark, eldest and mightiest of primals... I pride myself on my imagination, but your feats transcend aught my mind could possibly conceive.

Against all odds, you struck down the puissant being, yet triumph quickly turned to tragedy, for Zodiark's fall proved to be the trigger for the Final Days...

...Yes. Yes, the words well up within me, Pray lend them an ear.

Born of ancient men, a divinity was freed,♪
Their hopes unrequited, they knew no reprieve.♪

Born of mortal men, a champion did arise,♪
Ascending to the heavens, ruination to defy.♪

That the ancients should sacrifice half their number to save the star... The strength of their resolve makes me tremble in admiration.

Even as it saddens me to think that one of their own would seek to lay it all to waste, so deep was his despair...

Not having lived their lives, I feel decidedly unworthy to speak of their hearts. Better that the whole truth remain with you, and you alone.

Let it suffice for me to honor a fragment of their hopes and dreams in song, that their lives and sacrifice may ever be remembered.

[Rannie]

The snip

I know you didn't post it just because I asked but Thank you Lauront. I wanted to read the translation ^_^

[KageTokage]

I can't help but recall the words of the pink Convocation stone, seemingly describing the sensation of being tempered by Zodiark:

"I feel my soul turning. Slowly but irrevocably. And the power I wield begins to seem terrible... But this is right. It is right."

We already know it didn't seem to have much effect on the minds of those involved in the summoning, but I'm wondering how else it affected them. One could at minimum assume the Ascian affinity for dark magicks and aversion to light stems partly from it, though.

[EaraGrace]

Pure irony.

I do at least try to be understanding and try to see the perspective of those disagree with me, until it’s made clear that it’s not reciprocated.

Dude, it's very clear she attempted to, at the very least, reach that time convergence. Even if it's not "all according to keikaku", her giving emet the chance to escape is proof of that.

Yet she reacts with surprise when we mention Elpis.

Or what about her statement when leave to go back to our time? (Combined speech in all four languages)



Hmmmm, this doesn’t sound like a person wholly dedicated to one future does it?

This doesn't make sense at all." working on her people issue" means helping those people to work past their problems, not wiping the slate clean. It's like we burn down uldah back then in ARR for being a corrupt nation and backstabbing the scions.

I’d think dividing her people to such an extent as to require Elidibus to return would denote effort.

Lose that attitude. Seriously. No one said she's enjoying it. I acknowledge she feels conflicted about it. But doesn't change that she made a bad questionable choice.

At this point why should I. All I get for my opinions is sneering and condescension. Why should I offer anymore good faith in these conversations?

First, that rejoining is 100% sure something she knows need to happen and allow it. Otherwise the WoL might have not been born at all.

Baked into that is the assumption that she only desires one outcome above all others. The fact is she nearly sent the timeline in all sorts of directions during her time as Hydaelyn, for no reason under this perspective. Explain why create WoL in any of the calamities that were necessary to occur. Explain why bother granting the blessing to those in 1.0 who canonically did not survive.

Second, the Ancients already have the power to overcome despair. Sacrificing half your population requires no small feat amount of conviction. Dynamis utilize all kind of energy after all.

Argue this point all you like, the writers clearly don’t agree.

And I ask again, how do you expect them to "move on" if they didn't even hear meteion report? They're race that's borderline immortal and very rarely died against their own free will. Saying things like "move on please" while not explaining the reason behind it is dumb. Why should they listen when they have the means to brought back their lost friends?

Idk, maybe by stating a clear fact that death is a natural part of life and desperately clinging to the idea that suffering and unforeseen ends can be prevented in their entirety is a recipe for destruction.

[Cleretic]

I can't help but recall the words of the pink Convocation stone, seemingly describing the sensation of being tempered by Zodiark:

"I feel my soul turning. Slowly but irrevocably. And the power I wield begins to seem terrible... But this is right. It is right."

We already know it didn't seem to have much effect on the minds of those involved in the summoning, but I can't help but wonder how else it affected them. One could at minimum assume the Ascian affinity for dark magicks and aversion to light stems partly from it, though.

First of all: the stone in question belonged to Altima, one of the Ascians that Gaius allegedly killed. Not likely to be important, but might as well give the name.

And I remember that at least at the time, it was thought that maybe this is why Venat's crew's arguments were falling on especially deaf ears; because at this point the Convocation were tempered and unreasonably set into their plan. That's still a possible explanation, although we now know that Venat's crew were struggling to get the average Ancient to listen anyway.

[Lauront]

I can't help but recall the words of the pink Convocation stone, seemingly describing the sensation of being tempered by Zodiark:

"I feel my soul turning. Slowly but irrevocably. And the power I wield begins to seem terrible... But this is right. It is right."

We already know it didn't seem to have much effect on the minds of those involved in the summoning, but I can't help but wonder how else it affected them. One could at minimum assume the Ascian affinity for dark magicks and aversion to light stems partly from it, though.

Agreed, the aether affinity definitely seems to stem from it.