Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[thegreatonemal]

I don't think he needs to 'try again' since his sources and the overall context fit very with what Lauront is outlining where Tempering is concerned.

It's also deceptive framing since not all the sources linked in the lengthy post are from before the point of Zodiark's summoning which makes me question if the post was even read on anything but a surface level.

I don't want to unintentionally spoil anything if you're not all caught up with the MSQ's but have you done the story content that Slater is referencing, here:

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context. The debate is over if they sacrifice more lives to bring back the people who gave up their lives. Nothing here suggest that the tempered are resisting Zodiark.
I'm caught up on the msq and comparing a dragon to ancients is not the best comparison. She is one of the strongest beings on the planet and we fully don't understand how they work. Also this person is leaving out that Tiamat didn't look to the primal as a god but an equal partner which they speculate why she retains all of her will. This is not the case with the ancients. The only reason she actually wants to stay locked up is just in case meeting the primal again causes her to fall under its control. It's out of an abundance of cation

[Theodric]

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context.

The sources Lauront provided are not saying what you are portraying them as. You're free to read into them differently but the sources provided it make it pretty clear that Zodiark's Tempering was not the same sort of Tempering as that which the likes of Leviathan and Lakshmi were inflicting upon their followers, nor were the Convocation lacking the ability to make decisions that went against what Elidibus/Zodiark desired. We see this frequently throughout the game, such as when Nabriales gets hasty and puts his own plan into action and again when Fandaniel decides to hijack Zodiark. There's also Emet accompanying the player character and Scions throughout Norvrandt where he gives them information and even brings Y'shtola back from the 'dead'. None of which he would be able to do if he were bound entirely to Zodiark's will.

Perhaps most important, however, is the aspects in Lauront's post that outline that the Convocation itself was divided over how to handle the way forward where saving Etheirys was concerned. Again, something that would not happen if they were simply interested in feeding souls to Zodiark and nothing else. Elidibus took his leave of Zodiark and proved that, yes, actually, the Ancients really could bring back their loved ones.

They were also under no obligation to go along with what Venat was suggesting. We already know - thanks to hindsight - that her opposition to the third round of sacrifices was not based on the act of sacrifice itself so much as Meteion's report. Something she failed to outline to the Convocation in the first place. Perhaps if she had been open and honest she might have been able to convince her people to take a different path, though we'll never know as she never bothered to make every effort to save her civilisation and species from extinction. In actuality, she inflicted genocide upon every last man, woman and child amongst the Ancients and stripped away everything that made them into them. Then proceeded to support further acts of genocide in the name of her 'grand plan' which led to untold levels of suffering across the board.

[thegreatonemal]

The sources Lauront provided are not saying what you are portraying them as. You're free to read into them differently but the sources provided it make it pretty clear that Zodiark's Tempering was not the same sort of Tempering as that which the likes of Leviathan and Lakshmi were inflicting upon their followers, nor were the Convocation lacking the ability to make decisions that went against what Elidibus/Zodiark desired. We see this frequently throughout the game, such as when Nabriales gets hasty and puts his own plan into action and again when Fandaniel decides to hijack Zodiark. There's also Emet accompanying the player character and Scions throughout Norvrandt where he gives them information and even brings Y'shtola back from the 'dead'. None of which he would be able to do if he were bound entirely to Zodiark's will.

Perhaps most important, however, is the aspects in Lauront's post that outline that the Convocation itself was divided over how to handle the way forward where saving Etheirys was concerned. Again, something that would not happen if they were simply interested in feeding souls to Zodiark and nothing else. Elidibus took his leave of Zodiark and proved that, yes, actually, the Ancients really could bring back their loved ones.

They were also under no obligation to go along with what Venat was suggesting. We already know - thanks to hindsight - that her opposition to the third round of sacrifices was not based on the act of sacrifice itself so much as Meteion's report. Something she failed to outline to the Convocation in the first place. Perhaps if she had been open and honest she might have been able to convince her people to take a different path, though we'll never know as she never bothered to make every effort to save her civilisation and species from extinction. In actuality, she inflicted genocide upon every last man, woman and child amongst the Ancients and stripped away everything that made them into them. Then proceeded to support further acts of genocide in the name of her 'grand plan' which led to untold levels of suffering across the board.

I already went over how tempering doesn't always turn one into a mndless follower. None of your examples support your point. Nabriales's plan was to do something with the staff to cause another rejoining. Perfectly in line to what Zodiark would desire. Fandaniel is another matter seeing as he never wanted to go back to the old world. Amon always wanted to kill every. I suppose just having the memories doesn't make you tempered. Emet doesn't have that excuse and he explains multiple times to the party that his end goal is the rejoining his goals never changed, just the method used to get there. Violence on his part would just end in his death like Lahabrea. Weather or not you wanna assume that he could tell we were Azem and he thought his friend would help him out like old times, while also forgetting that said friend was against summoning Zodiark in the first place and would never help him with that would further support him being tempered and not being able to do anything that didn't involve Zodiark free. He just wasn't hostile from the beginning because he hoped that by telling us the truth of the world we would be of one mind and on his side. Again, nothing to suggest he was going against the will of his primal.

The convocation wasn't divided, their people as a whole were. There were those who sided with the convocation and those that didn't. Those fierce debates are what caused Elidbus to pull himself away from Zodiark to do his job of mediation and it failed because the people on the convocation wouldn't relent on their chosen course. That's what Elidbus is lamenting in that source you and the other person have cited. You are free to believe otherwise, but that's just fancanon on your part.

No one said they had to agree with her plans. With hindsight we know that their established plan doesn't do anything to fix the problem. The way dyanimis works is such that their very biology is a burden and their plans basically amount to hide behind zodiark. Not to mention you and lots of other people over look something. Did the people who gave themselves in the first to sacrifices want to be brought back? The entire point was that they would give up their lives to save everyone else. Did they only do it because they knew they would be brought back? Given what we know of their society that kinda tracks, they've shown they don't really care about anything that isn't them. That would make Emet's assertion fall flat if they were just expecting everything to be as it was before the final days. You assertion that she didn't try and talk is false. %.3 and the msq prove you wrong. Her faction did try, it didn't work so plan sunder it was. It was a gamble but it was better than certain death. She herself knows it was a horrible thing to have to do.

[Lauront]

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context. The debate is over if they sacrifice more lives to bring back the people who gave up their lives. Nothing here suggest that the tempered are resisting Zodiark.

I am going to quote it and you can tell me what is "incorrect given the context" here:

Elidibus : Le Concile avait perdu sa cohésion... Face à l'anéantissement, les avis divergeaient sur la marche à suivre pour sauver notre planète…
= “The Council had lost its cohesion… Faced with annihilation, opinions differed on the way forward to save our planet…”
Elidibus : Ça ne leur ressemblait pas... Plus que jamais, ils avaient besoin d'Elidibus... Ils avaient besoin de moi... Alors, je me suis détaché de Zordiarche pour voler à leur secours...
= “It wasn’t like them… More than ever, they needed Elidibus… They needed me… So, I broke away from Zodiark to come to their aid…”
Elidibus : C'est ça... Chacun d'eux, je les aimais plus que tout... !
= “That’s it… Each of them, I loved them more than anything…!”

The scene from SoS it relates to is this. The corresponding incident detailed in Ere our curtain falls is this. This dialogue relates to when he had already become Zodiark, as per the bolded (and as per the EN equivalent), and the aforementioned loss of cohesion (strange if they were all a tempered hivemind as you claim) along with a divergence in opinions is what motivated him to withdraw himself - he even mentions detaching from him, in case that "faced with annihilation" is confusing you (it is meant in the sense of having experienced annihilation.)

You have claimed now repeatedly that others are "lying and twisting" things, and claimed emphatically that their tempering was responsible for their stance in spite of not a single source touching on this in respect of the sacrifices, as well as making allusions to other instances of tempering which are 1) either disanalogous to Zodiark as primals or 2) simply not consistent with recent lore (e.g. the Heavensward and their tempering.)

I'm caught up on the msq and comparing a dragon to ancients is not the best comparison. She is one of the strongest beings on the planet

Oh, you mean like one of those beings it took 8 champions, a further soul rejoining and loads of Lightwarden light to actually fell? Unsundered ancients have souls on a similar order of power. And we don't know all the ins and outs about them, either. Plus, as I pointed out, Zodiark was not summoned using the sort of rites that went into Bahamut and lacks the usual primal will. Tempering over time can change a person, especially if they fail to preserve both identity and memory, which is why taking what some of the Ascians were like 12k years later to infer what they were like just after summoning Zodiark is a silly idea.

Second, the Ancients already have the power to overcome despair. Sacrificing half your population requires no small feat amount of conviction. Dynamis utilize all kind of energy after all.

Indeed:

Wandering Minstrel
Oho, what manner of thrilling adventure might this be?
Good gods, a battle on the moon with Zodiark, eldest and mightiest of primals... I pride myself on my imagination, but your feats transcend aught my mind could possibly conceive.

Against all odds, you struck down the puissant being, yet triumph quickly turned to tragedy, for Zodiark's fall proved to be the trigger for the Final Days...

...Yes. Yes, the words well up within me, Pray lend them an ear.

Born of ancient men, a divinity was freed,♪
Their hopes unrequited, they knew no reprieve.♪

Born of mortal men, a champion did arise,♪
Ascending to the heavens, ruination to defy.♪

That the ancients should sacrifice half their number to save the star... The strength of their resolve makes me tremble in admiration.

Even as it saddens me to think that one of their own would seek to lay it all to waste, so deep was his despair...

Not having lived their lives, I feel decidedly unworthy to speak of their hearts. Better that the whole truth remain with you, and you alone.

Let it suffice for me to honor a fragment of their hopes and dreams in song, that their lives and sacrifice may ever be remembered.

[Rannie]

The snip

I know you didn't post it just because I asked but Thank you Lauront. I wanted to read the translation ^_^