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  1. #101
    Player
    Jonnycbad's Avatar
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    Apr 2015
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    Character
    Seraphus Highwynn
    World
    Gilgamesh
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    Lancer Lv 100
    Emet and the unsundered were literally unsundered because when we explained our past to Venat and the others offscreen, we likely explained our entire journey from ARR to EW. Knowing Laha, Elidibus and Emet were our adversaries in the future, she likely spared them since those 3 were integral in leading the events that led up to us being groomed into the warrior of light (various calamities, allagan empire, Garleans, Ultima Weapon, primals, etc). Without those 3 being unsundered, we would never have met the scions or fought all these powerful adversaries and got to where we are. They are literally nexus characters that are required to groom our WoL into the hero they are to save the universe. It was the longest of long cons.
    (1)

  2. #102
    Player
    Alleo's Avatar
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    Jul 2015
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    4,730
    Character
    Light Khah
    World
    Moogle
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    Arcanist Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by polyphonica View Post
    Just one important point about this. During the Live Letter, Yoshida specifically said that this latter part was not the lore reason, but only his own personal speculation. So the part about growing bigger ears due to being hard of hearing, or Lalafells being small because they were under pressure, were basically joke answers and shouldn't be taken seriously (unless it actually gets written into the lore, but this was just Yoshida spitballing at the end). The fact that the player races are descended from Sundered Ancients didn't get this disclaimer though, so we can assume that part to be as canon as we get for now.
    Good to know. Is there a link to the whole translation? I just assumed that the points posted in the OP were full on facts but its a relieve that this was just his view on it and not necessarily the "lore" reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kozh View Post
    I don't even say the WoL told her about every calamity or the world's history. Dunno where people get this from - _-

    I'm just saying it's possible we told about ultima, because we directly fight it and it was quite a big deal.

    I personally don't doubt that. She intentionally let the unsundered survive to do rejoining after all. She knew the world would survive despite being rejoined 7 times. She only need to do the bare minimum, by making warrior of lights and let them sort it out by themselves. After all, rejoining is a vital part of her plan to introduce despair to the sundered.
    The problem with it, is that we simply dont know how much she did help with all these historical events. Maybe there were many more rejoinings that would have happened but she helped stopped them. Maybe she even tried to stop any of the rejoining but they still happened. After all she must have barely any knowledge on those so how would she know that these specific events over 12.000 years would need to happen a certain way? What if she misread the information and suddenly she would be too weak to shield us against Ultima?

    My headcanon right now is, that she tried her best and that our timeline is basically the result of it. After all she does say that the stories of our adventures kept her going even after all her failures.

    (Also my points are not just about your points, but there has been postings here that make it sound like she know exactly how everything happens which makes no sense to me.)
    (1)
    Last edited by Alleo; 02-20-2022 at 07:43 PM.

  3. #103
    Player
    Kozh's Avatar
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    Mar 2020
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    888
    Character
    Corvo Aerden
    World
    Kujata
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatonemal View Post
    Some of you really twist yourself into knots trying to dislike Venat, to the point where a good number of you are straight up lying about stuff to make it seem like she was worshiped without question especially once it came to light what she was and what she had to do. She herself agonized over the choice she had to make, didn't know if it would even be enough and came up with a back up plan that would have been for nothing given our foe's actual endgame.

    Given the circumstances and the nature of our foe sundering was the only viable option to her considering her most of her people were set onto a different course. the leaders of which couldn't say no and change paths even if they wanted too. Ya know, tempered an all that.
    Stop gaslighting people, it's rude. Tempered? Who's now twisting stuff? Tempered was not an issue since Emet still retain the ability to help us "free" Elidibus from his burden.

    Sorry not sorry that some of us can't help but dislike Venat, maybe if the writers didn't make her the biggest idiot, I would like her more.

    Quote Originally Posted by polyphonica View Post
    snip
    Oh, she's worried about spilling beans because "Hades may not believe her"/"Hades may kick Hermes from convocation"? She apparently not worried gambling trillions of lives for 12k years based on meeting some dude from the future for a day. Never mind gambling the future of humanity by putting the burden on our shoulder, even maintaining the time loop is a gamble itself. Rather than working on her own people's issue (like a normal person), she decided to wipe the slate clean.

    How do you even expect people to learn from their mistake if they don't even know the problem is? Her not mentioning meteion at all is like if you go to random person and said "hey, you fail the test", while they doesn't even know they're being tested for what.

    Also, it's just funny that were the Ancients "move on" and decided not to do the third sacrifice, they will still lose in the end since meteion speed up the death of the universe. Or if the Ascian decided to "move on" after sundering, then her plan failed too because she needs rejoining to introduce mankind to despair and for the time loop to happen.
    (13)

  4. #104
    Player
    Tsiron's Avatar
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    Nov 2020
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    1,046
    Character
    Shisen Akaitama
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    The only reason Emet was willing to help us against Elidibus is because we killed him and a quick dip in the aetherial sea cleansed him of his tempering...
    (6)

  5. #105
    Player EaraGrace's Avatar
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    Feb 2019
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    Ul’dah
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    822
    Character
    Eara Grace
    World
    Faerie
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    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kozh View Post
    Oh, she's worried about spilling beans because "Hades may not believe her"/"Hades may kick Hermes from convocation"? She apparently not worried gambling trillions of lives for 12k years based on meeting some dude from the future for a day. Never mind gambling the future of humanity by putting the burden on our shoulder, even maintaining the time loop is a gamble itself. Rather than working on her own people's issue (like a normal person), she decided to wipe the slate clean.
    We’ll first whether she was “maintaining the time loop” remains unclear. Saving Emet from the Sundering, and even then on a gamble, is not enough to do so considering you’d need all three Unsundered. She could’ve left the door opened to that possibility, but that doesn’t indicate an “all according to keikaku” move.

    And “working on her own peoples issues” was the Sundering. That was the point, heading down the path they were on would mean doom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kozh View Post
    How do you even expect people to learn from their mistake if they don't even know the problem is? Her not mentioning meteion at all is like if you go to random person and said "hey, you fail the test", while they doesn't even know they're being tested for what.
    Yes, I’m sure she loved not being able to tell people. Probably was going “ohhohoho” while she did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kozh View Post
    Also, it's just funny that were the Ancients "move on" and decided not to do the third sacrifice, they will still lose in the end since meteion speed up the death of the universe. Or if the Ascian decided to "move on" after sundering, then her plan failed too because she needs rejoining to introduce mankind to despair and for the time loop to happen.
    I mean, if they moved on I’d imagine they would then work out a way to defeat Meteion, probably with some form of the Sundering. And if they moved on afterwards they would already have the means to confront despair, considering they’d live imperfect, mortal lives with death an inevitability. The Rejoinings would only be needed if one was aiming to ensure the timelines were the same as you say, but once again whether that was the main intent is up in the air.
    (0)

  6. #106
    Player
    Absimiliard's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Cassius Rex
    World
    Louisoix
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    Gladiator Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsiron View Post
    The only reason Emet was willing to help us against Elidibus is because we killed him and a quick dip in the aetherial sea cleansed him of his tempering...
    Not entirely correct. Emet-Selch displayed a tendency to do whatever he wanted well before that point, even actively aiding us during Shadowbringers. That deal with the wardens' light wasn't a lie; he really was ready to give up on his plans and roll with things as they were if the WoL could contain it. Prior to this, there was at least one other time he was willing to throw in the proverbial towel, but the death of his mortal son shook him badly enough that he resumed.

    Elidibus showed more than a little bit of free will as well. Quite a few of the things he did were directly antithetical to his stated purpose, and we know now that he did those things more or less just because he wanted to. What Elidibus lacked was his memories, but he seems to have gotten most - or at least some - of those back after his defeat at the end of the Seat of Sacrifice.

    Lahabrea... well, Lahabrea actually seems to be pretty darned tempered at first glance. Unfortunately, we can't tell how much of it is tempering and how much is just him being nuts from 12,000 years of misery and body hopping. That being said, we know the Convocation was split when it came to the second and third sets of sacrifices to Zodiark. They must not have been too tempered if they were arguing over whether or not feeding him more souls was a good idea. Bearing this in mind, it seems like Lahabrea's fanaticism is probably the result of him being off his rocker.
    (5)
    Last edited by Absimiliard; 02-20-2022 at 10:38 PM.

  7. #107
    Player
    tokinokanatae's Avatar
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    Character
    Amasar Ugund
    World
    Ultros
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    Archer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    I mean, if they moved on I’d imagine they would then work out a way to defeat Meteion, probably with some form of the Sundering.
    I don’t think this logically follows. So, they decide to move on from the cataclysmic event by not rebuilding and deciding to voluntarily tear themselves into smaller pieces? Why would they do that for absolutely no reason?
    (10)

  8. #108
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
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    Sep 2021
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    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
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    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
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    Alchemist Lv 100
    To reiterate the twofold reasons that Venat gave for being selective about who she told, both of which were said back-to-back in the exact same cutscene after Ktisis:
    1. Overall, people will take the news badly and drop into despair (which we see happen exactly). So she needs to make sure to only tell people she know can take that bad news.
    2. Hermes especially needs to not know, because he as the only Dynamis-knower in a position of power is needed for creating Zodiark, and if he learns Meteion is responsible for this then he's going to either drop into despair himself or go complete turncoat, as he did at the end of Ktisis.

    She didn't enjoy doing any of this, she is Not Having Fun.

    ...and yeah, there's literally no chance they would've gone 'okay we're doing pretty good, let's sunder our entire planet and people just a little'. That's absurd. Especially if you believe that the Sundering was a form of great mass death and suffering, which... you know, it probably was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnycbad View Post
    Emet and the unsundered were literally unsundered because when we explained our past to Venat and the others offscreen, we likely explained our entire journey from ARR to EW. Knowing Laha, Elidibus and Emet were our adversaries in the future, she likely spared them since those 3 were integral in leading the events that led up to us being groomed into the warrior of light (various calamities, allagan empire, Garleans, Ultima Weapon, primals, etc). Without those 3 being unsundered, we would never have met the scions or fought all these powerful adversaries and got to where we are. They are literally nexus characters that are required to groom our WoL into the hero they are to save the universe. It was the longest of long cons.
    Did you watch the Q&A?

    The way it was largely put forward was that yeah, she was crossing her fingers to spare Emet, but didn't have a lot of control over it, so she just tried her best to let Emet live and by chance he happened to also save Elid and Laha. The way I put it when trying to describe it, she couldn't actively choose for Emet to survive, but could deliberately avoid making absolute sure he didn't, so she left an opening and gambled on him being smart enough to dodge. Which he did, and then happened to crack out a clutch Rescue on both of the others.

    Which is only really new information logistically; we already knew Venat planned for Emet to live from the fact that Emet himself deduced that and Emet can generally be trusted to be right about this stuff. We just didn't know how she did it.
    (7)
    Last edited by Cleretic; 02-20-2022 at 10:47 PM.

  9. #109
    Player EaraGrace's Avatar
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    Ul’dah
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    Eara Grace
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    Faerie
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    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by tokinokanatae View Post
    I don’t think this logically follows. So, they decide to move on from the cataclysmic event by not rebuilding and deciding to voluntarily tear themselves into smaller pieces? Why would they do that for absolutely no reason?
    They had reason to though. To accept Suffering as an inevitable and necessary part of defeating Meteion would mean ia profound change, and yet more would be required of the Ancients to fully face Meteion. I’m not saying they would have to Sunder everything like what happened, but some form of change in the same vein would be required. They need to both lessen aetheric density and face mortality, and thus a lesser Sundering seems logical, albeit more controlled and structured I’m sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    Did you watch the Q&A?

    The way it was largely put forward was that yeah, she was crossing her fingers to spare Emet, but didn't have a lot of control over it, so she just tried her best to let Emet live and by chance he happened to also save Elid and Laha. The way I put it when trying to describe it, she couldn't actively choose for Emet to survive, but could deliberately avoid making absolute sure he didn't, so she left an opening and gambled on him being smart enough to dodge. Which he did, and then happened to crack out a clutch Rescue on both of the others.

    Which is only really new information logistically; we already knew Venat planned for Emet to live from the fact that Emet himself deduced that and Emet can generally be trusted to be right about this stuff. We just didn't know how she did it.
    Watching that clip I think my whole city heard someone scream “WHY?”

    Not out of anger or frustration but an overwhelming need for a follow up question. Why do that? Venat had to have a reason, and it being an attempt to maintain the timeline doesn’t quite fit given it was done that way to let Emet specifically escape (the other two being unplanned it sounds to me). So why?
    (0)
    Last edited by EaraGrace; 02-20-2022 at 11:01 PM.

  10. #110
    Player
    Absimiliard's Avatar
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    Cassius Rex
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    Louisoix
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    Gladiator Lv 90
    There was no actual proof high aetheric density makes someone incapable of utilizing Dynamis. That was Venat's assumption, but it wasn't able to be substantiated before the Sundering. The WoL is 8/14ths rejoined and utilizes Dynamis far better than just about anyone. Merging with Ardbert actually seemed to increase their compatibility with it, not decreased it. It seems quite probably the Ancients couldn't utilize it because of how their emotions are handled. Beyond that, the lack of suffering in their society simply left them ill prepared for the kind of emotional turmoil one needs before they can access it.

    Regarding Emet-Selch and the Sundering: Venat did not have the ability to control who was sundered and who wasn't. The best she could manage was giving one guy a possible out, but it would only work if he figured out what was up and took measures against it. Emet-Selch himself saved the other two. She had probably unknowingly (via failure to divulge information and her general adherence to her preferred timeline outcome) ensured Elidibus and Lahabrea would be in his vicinity when everything kicked off. By aiming specifically for the outcome she'd heard about from the WoL, it's pretty likely all the pieces fell right into place without her even fully realizing how every little action creates tiny ripples that can then influence other actions and their outcomes. It's like ripples on the surface of a pond.
    (7)
    Last edited by Absimiliard; 02-20-2022 at 11:08 PM.

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