Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[SannaR]

So much this. I am unhappy that they left the answer up to individual headcanon. Thus really needs more discussion on the forums then it's getting.

I don't know what my headcannon for the WoL would be, but from what little we know it just feels wrong that Azem would do nothing. Let alone anything that would seemingly go against how they've been portrayed.

[sidurgu-12]

Fact remains though the story itself treats her as a herois and some benevolent person. That’s the problem many people have. We didn’t have the story painting Emet as some heroine.

Because she is a hero to them. shes the reason theyre alive and have a chance a winning. still a gray situation though.

[Lauront]

At the end of the day we can all do any mental gymnastics to show an alternative way for the Ancients, Venat etc, but it is what it is.

I agree that what's done is done; but I wouldn't call it mental gymnastics to explore those threads the writers left in the story as possible avenues for how the ancients might have gone about it if things went differently. If this is frustrating to some people, they're free to ignore it, but they need to understand that twisting the words of the writers to try shut this down is not going to work.

What I like about this is, that Emet is the hero of his own people. Venat on the other hand gave it all for a new way of life, wether you agree or not. So it's quite feasable that the people of the new world (also us) would be more positive towards her than Emet. But that would be an entire different debate, cuz they dont have a clue as to what happened and probably cant comprehend it.

Sure, we can frame it as a matter of perspectives, as the writers have. Of course, as a player I am not bound to associate more closely with one or the other. In fact, my preference between the two is for the ancients.

Because she is a hero to them. shes the reason theyre alive and have a chance a winning. still a gray situation though.

Might be why they don't want to lean into Azem too much. Besides forcing an interpretation the player might not agree with on how their character's ancient self would've reacted, Azem also had stronger ties to the world back then.

[EaraGrace]

Hmm yes, today I will:
-Shatter a man's home's destroying it utterly and completely
-Erase the history of his people from the world, there being no recording or recollection of it anywhere but in his memory
-Obliterate each and every person that he knows, splitting them across 14 different worlds
-And subject him to viewing the short, short lives, of people who require more sustenance to survive, and kill each other for reasons I know he will find inane.

Are you honestly going to cling to the idea that Emet doing what he did in retaliation wasn't EXACTLY what she had intended? Look, you can believe whatever you want, I'm not going to go on pages with you like you do others, but while I admit there is guesswork in my conclusions, this is an Occam's razor situation. If they really wanted to sell Venat wanting diplomacy above all else, they would have shown her doing such with Elidibus, the heart of Zodiark who SPECIFICALLY withdrew himself from the primal for diplomacy, instead they had her plead with a bunch of nameless strawmen. It's too tough a sell to try to convince me of anything else here, sorry.

Jesus why do we have to get so heated so quickly. I’m having a discussion and giving my viewpoint. Don’t like it, say I disagree. There’s no need to raise the temp.

And on that you saw that he was not so unwilling to accept that necessity once he understood the full picture. We see in Elpis that he was willing to join us, we see in Ultima Thule that he at least understood Venats position. While he was still snotty about it, both Hythlo and Emet affirm their desire to see us onward, despite everything that occurred. He didn’t like it, he wasn’t happy about it, but he understood and even empathized with us, the people who killed him, in Venats name no less! Before that he even commends her! The woman who did all those things to him!

Yes, I do believe if he remembered Elpis he would see Venats plan as the right one and while he may not like it he would work to see the star delivered from Meteions destruction. In an odd way, I left Endwalker with way more respect for Emet than I did going in.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Jesus why do we have to get so heated so quickly. I’m having a discussion and giving my viewpoint. Don’t like it, say I disagree. There’s no need to raise the temp and yet it does I’m blamed for it.

And on that you saw that he was not so unwilling to accept that necessity once he understood the full picture. We see in Elpis that he was willing to join us, we see in Ultima Thule that he at least understood Venats position. While he was still snotty about it, both Hythlo and Emet affirm their desire to see us onward, despite everything that occurred. He didn’t like it, he wasn’t happy about it, but he understood and even empathized with us, the people who killed him, in Venats name no less! Before that he even commends her! The woman who did all those things to him!

Yes, I do believe if he remembered Elpis he would see Venats plan as the right one and while he may not like it he would work to see the star delivered from Meteions destruction. In an odd way, I left Endwalker with way more respect for Emet than I did going in.

I'm not particularly heated? I guess that's just intent not coming out through text as well, so I apologize if I offended you with spicy wording. I was just being dramatic to make a point, nothing directed at your character. On your point, yes, Emet took his loss with a lot of grace, earagrace, if you will... (more than he realistically should have, for being foisted through hell for thousands of years, but I digress) but he still did not compromise on his ideals, and says as such. Giving a theater clap to Venat's strokes is one thing, saying there was nothing else to be done is another. I think it is giving him waaay more credit than he deserves to think that he would be on her side at this point. I mean, that's why she didn't tell him anything, right?

[Rulakir]

So much this. I am unhappy that they left the answer up to individual headcanon. Thus really needs more discussion on the forums then it's getting.

I wanted to know more about Azem during the Final Days until EW happened. I've been concerned ever since that Azem was going to be retconned from having opposed both sides to secretly working with Venat given how she was portrayed. I haven't seen anyone mention it, but Yoshi-P said (in regards to the question of what Azem was doing during the Final Days), "What would I have done if Venat had told me this?" So apparently Azem knew or at least Yoshi-P believes they did. This was one of the issues I had with Venat being 1) the former Azem, 2) the WoL's Azem's mentor, and 3) all the prestige of the white robes of being wise/impartial/trustworthy, etc. The question becomes, why wouldn't Azem be on her side when she's depicted as this great and wonderful person, arguably one of the best of their kind?

As someone who has always disliked Hydaelyn starting from ARR, EW was the worst case scenario for me where my WoL was not only ultimately her groomed champion (something I abhorred) but additionally made to be some kind of time transcendent BFF of hers. Particularly disturbing when you realize she's responsible for sundering your original self and condemning your two actual BFFs to fates worse than death. The whole story has been a seemingly bottomless pit of how morally deficient can Venat be and still be presented (gaslit) that she's "not a bad guy". Having Azem in on this too would've just been the last nail in the coffin. There's such a gross discrepancy between my feelings and the writers' on this one it's difficult to rectify.

Speaking of which, saying that the Ancients didn't think like us is such a cop out that could be used for every antagonist ever. "They're not really evil, they just don't think like us!" Obviously.

[Lauront]

Speaking of which, saying that the Ancients didn't think like us is such a cop out that could be used for every antagonist ever. "They're not really evil, they just don't think like us!" Obviously.

It's also rather weak when debate and enquiry is deeply ingrained in their society as a foundational principle, and when we have multiple sundered antagonists (and even protagonists re: the Ironworks in the AU) who take it upon themselves to enforce their decisions against wider mankind. It's obviously correct that the ancients were rather different beings in many ways, which will follow from some of their innate traits inherently. But in this case I don't think it holds much water to attribute this impulse to that - and it's telling that he has to draw comparisons to Emet-Selch after he's been changed from 12k years of a rather gruesome toil. I welcome the comparison, of course. On the question of Azem, all I can say is if it were my character, they would not side with her decision to sunder her own, and would instead have tried to find a way to alert their people to the risk present, and if she was being coy, dig deeper.

[Theodric]

I think Shadowbringers set up a lot of potentially intriguing plot hooks that didn't quite manage to land with Endwalker. Insofar as Azem is concerned, I always thought it was pretty weird how it ended up amounting to very little. I know that if I was given credible evidence that I was actually the reincarnation of a famous individual then I would be pretty eager to learn as much about that person as possible.

I suppose now we'll learn very little of Azem because given how controversial Venat has proven to be I doubt the writers want the headache of writing Azem as complicit in the extinction and non-consensual genocide of not only the Ancients but indirectly through the Rejoinings and every awful act that ever took place in the name of helping Venat's 'grand plan' along.

I'd feel immense second hand embarrassment towards any Azem that decided to kill their parents, grandparents, pets, spouse and children because Venat wanted to play the role of 'mOmMy SuPrEmE dEiTy' instead of helping those that actually mattered at the time.

I doubt I'm alone in that my Azem would question why Venat thought he'd go along with the extinction of his friends, family and pets before attempting to put her out of her misery.

[Denishia]

Considering I'm already disconnected from 'Azem' as opposed to my WoL because that Azem was good friends with Hades (and Hytho) where I found even Elpis Hades to someone whose personality I could barely tolerate to be around and thus the last choice as friend, the best move that the writing team can make is keep Azem and their adventures and motivations as open-ended as possible as to please everyone.

[thegreatonemal]

Except you’re literally twisting things into headcanon knots. The tempering seems a non-issue, considering the tempered convocation themselves were divided over the issue. From what i’ve seen, the main problem a lot of people have with Venat is the way she’s portrayed in the story. Yes, she herself agonizes over the choice she made, but the game still goes out of it’s way to paint her as a herois, when honestly her actions paint her as nothing of the sort. She kept secrets from her people, instead of having hope in them in potentially succeeding against Meteion, she never gave them the chance and instead sundered them. We don’t really have Emet painted as a hero, hell, Elidibus who sacrificed himself for us or Zodiark who protected us for thousands of years don’t even get this praise, so why should Venat? She caused so much suffering with her actions alone.

The convocation was not divided about it. the only person that disagreed and left before they even went through with the summoning was Azem. After he was summoned they were all on board and the only people that disagreed were Venat's faction. The debates about it all caused Elidibus to drag himself out of Zoidark to mediate. Which failed because one side has members who are tempered and would never ever agree to anything that wasn't feeding Zodiark more souls.

Like I said, lying and twisting yourself into knots. She gave them a chance, all the debates about doing more sacrifices was that chance.
What praise is she getting? Half the expansion was people not feeling like they could trust her because she was a primal. The other half was questioning why she wanted us to run and if that was her only option from the very start. Once we have the full picture she herself admits that while this was her only real option since she wants the world to keep on living she is painfully aware of all the death and misery shes caused but feels its worth it because mankind is able to stand up and fight for a chance to live rather than the 100% chance of death if she did nothing.

Emet doesn't get the benefit because as we've found out his way would have killed us all. He himself admits that.