What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

I was specifically responding to your assertion that it’s only headcanon they’d continue giving sacrifices. The text suggests others were working off that presumption as well.

I'm aware what you were responding to. It's still nothing to do with it.

Then you agree then that sacrifices would continue if they thought it would solve an issue their facing? Whether that be regaining those lost souls, rejoining humanity, or some other issue, sacrificing life to Zodiark in order to have Him address it is an option that’s can be used yes? I ask just to see if we agree on that in particular.

Desperately trying to stretch it into making some larger point about their plan pre-Sundering by invoking those specific sacrifices they intended to make post-Sundering to restore what Hydaelyn had shattered (forcing a new plan) isn't the most convincing of avenues, I'm afraid.

[Kozh]

Considering the other researchers we speak to offer glowing praise, he was so good that many he was seen as capable of of representing humanity, and that he was specifically chosen by the facilities previous chief, I’d say there’s a lot in his favor.

Well of course the writers would want to justify how hermes is suitable for his position. But if we were to analyze it from outside perspective, it's a weird decision. If it's only for his aptitude in flying creatures, just being a researchers there is enough. No need for him to be the chief.

Then you agree then that sacrifices would continue if they thought it would solve an issue their facing?

Not really. Yes to the third sacrifice, but after that? Why would they need to sacrifice more to begin with if the final days has stopped (at least to their knowledge)? Plus, zodiark isn't some mindless primal that will grant them every favour. With elidibus as it's heart, he's the one who decide what to do. Hence why he still sought peace with venat's faction.

And honestly, I don't see why the sacrifice is such a bad thing. Third sacrifice and the sundered sacrifice are bad, yes, but sacrificing themselves isn't. That's their own choice.

Not especially, as he never shows signs of knowing the specifics of Meteion, only recognizing that the Final Days would continue with Zodiarks destruction. The Watcher repeatedly states he’s not their to judge or hold positions on the issue, just to do what he was created to as an arcane creation.

But in the crystal memory log, he refers "they" for the convocation, and "we" for the venat's faction. I don't know how to post pictures, but you can see it at Garland Tools. But anyway, they probably make the Watcher to be very vague because they want to keep meteion and dynamis as a twist/surprise.

Either that or Venat doesn't tell her followers, or that she doesn't think the Watcher need to know everything.

(my guess is first explanation)

[Rulakir]

Hydaelyn's summoning is still something that makes no sense to me. The short story says "no small number" of people were against the third sacrifice, but depending on who you talk to on the forums Venat either had a substantial following or only the 12 people with her in Anyder. The issue is that some form of sacrifice had to occur for Hydaelyn to exist and I just don't buy that 12 people were sufficient enough to give her the power to ultimately defeat Zodiark. (I also find it hypocritical, but at this point what's new with her character?)

I'd have to double check, but didn't the Watcher also mention followers who looked after Zodiark post-sundering/imprisonment?

So opinions does anyone feel that this suitably answers why she made her decision?

Why Venat did it has never mattered to me. It's that one individual shouldn't have the executive authority to override an entire planet. It was a non-consensual act, even debatably among her own followers who, in the Anyder cutscene, behave as if nothing is going to happen to them once she became Hydaelyn. Not to mention that since Elidibus wasn't inside Zodiark at the time, it appears she did it while he was trying to mediate which is also a bad look.

Forget the gaslighting the game does to make you think she's great and wonderful, on paper her actions read as an ideological terrorist.

[Lauront]

I don't think she had the power to defeat him without dragging the entire star into it (an acceptable cost to her since she was going to sunder man anyway.) She ultimately mentions having to sunder the star, herself and him to contain him - now one could ask how do you sunder an entire planet, yourself and this very potent primal, and that'd be a good question, but apparently it just happened...

The third sacrifice initially saw broad division but that's before Elidibus emerged to mediate. A possible guess as to why that made a difference being that he was Zodiark's heart and could likely speak directly on what the souls inside him felt - seeing as it may have prevented their return to the star, which they prized. His emergence would also prove that it was possible to any doubters. So if they were concerned about whether it was feasible, and whether those inside Zodiark would approve of it, it could deal with those two issues. She did not disclose the actual knowledge she had, so I would surmise Elidibus's return proved decisive in melting away any remaining opposition to the sacrifices, especially if pitched in similar terms to the post-Elpis cutscene, i.e. avert them to avoid our doom... without really specifying why their doom would come beyond generalities about suffering.

[EaraGrace]

Desperately trying to stretch it into making some larger point about their plan pre-Sundering by invoking those specific sacrifices they intended to make post-Sundering to restore what Hydaelyn had shattered (forcing a new plan) isn't the most convincing of avenues, I'm afraid.

Right, they’ll be careful with the use of the “god born of our boundless faith.” They certainly will never sacrifice more souls to Him, ever again. After this third time of course. But then we’ll really be done.

Well of course the writers would want to justify how hermes is suitable for his position. But if we were to analyze it from outside perspective, it's a weird decision. If it's only for his aptitude in flying creatures, just being a researchers there is enough. No need for him to be the chief.

Those are the reasons. I’m simply arguing that’s what it says.

Not really. Yes to the third sacrifice, but after that? Why would they need to sacrifice more to begin with if the final days has stopped (at least to their knowledge)? Plus, zodiark isn't some mindless primal that will grant them every favour. With elidibus as it's heart, he's the one who decide what to do. Hence why he still sought peace with venat's faction.

For the inevitable next calamity, challenge, problem, issue, etc? You’ve created a god that wants to solve all your problems, how strong is your will to resist the temptation.

And honestly, I don't see why the sacrifice is such a bad thing. Third sacrifice and the sundered sacrifice are bad, yes, but sacrificing themselves isn't. That's their own choice.

No argument here, I have no beef with the first two. The third and any further ones however are a bad idea.

But in the crystal memory log, he refers "they" for the convocation, and "we" for the venat's faction. I don't know how to post pictures, but you can see it at Garland Tools. But anyway, they probably make the Watcher to be very vague because they want to keep meteion and dynamis as a twist/surprise.

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but doesn’t the we refer to himself and the Loporrits? The Loporrits are first mentioned in the crystal preceding the one where that is said, and they’re talking about Elidibus being on the moon in the present. Using we to refer to Venats faction would be odd given they are… not a we anymore truly.

Either that or Venat doesn't tell her followers, or that she doesn't think the Watcher need to know everything.

More than likely the latter, since he’s an arcane familiar.

(my guess is first explanation)

Then I suppose we disagree.

Why Venat did it has never mattered to me. It's that one individual shouldn't have the executive authority to override an entire planet. It was a non-consensual act, even debatably among her own followers who, in the Anyder cutscene, behave as if nothing is going to happen to them once she became Hydaelyn. Not to mention that since Elidibus wasn't inside Zodiark at the time, it appears she did it while he was trying to mediate which is also a bad look.

Forget the gaslighting the game does to make you think she's great and wonderful, on paper her actions read as an ideological terrorist.

What is good and what is consensus are not inherently the same. If an evil or damning act is to be taken by the majority, then one has an obligation to oppose them.

[BokoToloko]

.

Might as well be because his attitude is what makes him capable to salvage creations that others would've discarded without a giving much thought (just like the flightless creation Emet-Selch is goaded into helping to avoid having Hermes embarrasing himself). Which is more responsible and more effective than simply creating discarding then creating new concept from zero. It's not weird from an outside perspective to make the most of everything, neither from pragmatism nor from moralism.

And I don't think anybody has an issue with the 2 first sacrifice, since they were willingly done and were clearly a last ditch resource. It's the third sacrifice where the issue is found. Moreover, it bears to mind that, while it wasn't the ill-intended side effect of the modern primals, those that helped carry out the summoning were still tempered. It's really hard to say how that kind of tempering works, since we don't have any clear example of it(and it's one of the things that irks me about both Shadowbringers and Endwalker), but, at the very least, it would assure that, even after the 3 sacrifice, things wouldn't really be the same way they were before. For all the plans they laid out, they could've deviated to plain fanatism and start to hinge on Zodiark for every woe. Or their magicks could tip to dark aspect (as a matter of facts, that seems to be what happens to Ascians, who don't casts "True" spells but "Dark" spells) which could create another crisis like a bigger World of Darkness. They're hypothesis, but that's not different from assuming the Ancients would simply go on with no further issues, because not even them can really see into the future and their plans do not always go as they intend, as theory and practices are two different things.

Also, it's really a wild assumption to assume Elidibus actions just based on... a single line?. Not to mention it contradicts with Emet statement that Zodiark and Hydaelyn fought until Hydaelyn finally sundered, unless Elidibus commanded Zodiark to fight Hydaelyn while trying to mediate peace which sounds as contradictory as it gets. For all we care, it could even mean he was trying to temper (with no ill intention, weird as it sounds) them into joining the cause or he could've been just insisting them that their way was the just one frantically, which could've actually worsened the situation. Maybe he did it when Hydaelyn wasn't summoned but, after that, could've realized there was no talking out of it. There is a lot of assumptions that could be made but, in the end, they're just assumptions.

[NanaWiloh]

Hydaelyn's summoning is still something that makes no sense to me. The short story says "no small number" of people were against the third sacrifice, but depending on who you talk to on the forums Venat either had a substantial following or only the 12 people with her in Anyder. The issue is that some form of sacrifice had to occur for Hydaelyn to exist and I just don't buy that 12 people were sufficient enough to give her the power to ultimately defeat Zodiark. (I also find it hypocritical, but at this point what's new with her character?)

I'd have to double check, but didn't the Watcher also mention followers who looked after Zodiark post-sundering/imprisonment?



Why Venat did it has never mattered to me. It's that one individual shouldn't have the executive authority to override an entire planet. It was a non-consensual act, even debatably among her own followers who, in the Anyder cutscene, behave as if nothing is going to happen to them once she became Hydaelyn. Not to mention that since Elidibus wasn't inside Zodiark at the time, it appears she did it while he was trying to mediate which is also a bad look.

Forget the gaslighting the game does to make you think she's great and wonderful, on paper her actions read as an ideological terrorist.

Thanks for your opinion. Dont expect you to agree with her, as just trying to establish what drove such a choice. Sadly in desperate times authority means nothing people will just do what they feel is right. Good guys dont always make the best choices and your not expected to agree with them when they make such choices.

[Rulakir]

I don't think she had the power to defeat him without dragging the entire star into it (an acceptable cost to her since she was going to sunder man anyway.) She ultimately mentions having to sunder the star, herself and him to contain him - now one could ask how do you sunder an entire planet, yourself and this very potent primal, and that'd be a good question, but apparently it just happened...

This doesn't make any sense either given the context of her trial being the test of whether or not the WoL could face Meteion. Zodiark would've been the more powerful encounter by far if they were both sundered. I suppose you could hand wave it by saying Fandaniel wanted the WoL to defeat Zodiark so maybe he didn't bring his full power to bear, but that makes an already unsatisfactory encounter even worse.

What’s is good and what is consensus are not inherently the same. If an evil or damning act is to be taken by the majority, then one has an obligation to oppose.

That is entirely subjective. One person's good is another person's evil.

(Meant to edit and not reply, hence the deletion.)

[Anhra]

I think the Story was alright in Endwanker. If anything, i really disliked the Kingdom Hearts Arc in Elpis and what they did with the Ascians. They should have remained as a Mystery to us after the Events of ShB.

[EaraGrace]

That is entirely subjective. One person's good is another person's evil.

(Meant to edit and not reply, hence the deletion.)

I fall into a moral realist camp so I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I will ask though, do you think that one might disagree with it being subjective and thus have at least cause to act in this case?