What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[tokinokanatae]

I agree that sometimes good characters do bad things, but I don't think I've seen a good character as untrusting as Venat is.

I'll use an example from Endwalker. Imagine if, after we killed Zodiark, we told absolutely no one that the Final Days would restart due to him no longer shielding the planet. In fact, we don't tell anyone he's dead. Even further, if we, in fact, swore the Watcher to secrecy about this, because we were "afraid the citystates would panic" or "Urianger isn't as trustworthy as I'd like, so it's better to keep him in the dark."

Then we watch, silently, as the Final Days begin again. We watch as people die, forever parted from the aetherial sea and the cycle of rebirth. We watch as the Scions desperately try to figure out what could have possibly started the Final Days up again, wasting time and covering ground we already have intimate knowledge of.

But, since we're not Venat, we did what we did instead.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I agree that sometimes good characters do bad things, but I don't think I've seen a good character as untrusting as Venat is.

I'll use an example from Endwalker. Imagine if, after we killed Zodiark, we told absolutely no one that the Final Days would restart due to him no longer shielding the planet. In fact, we don't tell anyone he's dead. Even further, if we, in fact, swore the Watcher to secrecy about this, because we were "afraid the citystates would panic" or "Urianger isn't as trustworthy as I'd like, so it's better to keep him in the dark."

Then we watch, silently, as the Final Days begin again. We watch as people die, forever parted from the aetherial sea and the cycle of rebirth. We watch as the Scions desperately try to figure out what could have possibly started the Final Days up again, wasting time and covering ground we already have intimate knowledge of.

But, since we're not Venat, we did what we did instead.

This is an incredibly well done comparison and i think it really cements just why Venat seems so…wrong about everything.

[EaraGrace]

I've no doubt people disagree about what's subjective. The past two years have taught me that individuals have fundamentally different beliefs on what is right with some feeling fully justified in forcing others to adhere to their version of it. It doesn't, however, give them an excuse to act against others. Near as I can tell, the Amaurotines had a democracy that was overthrown by Venat.

If morality is subjective, then wouldn’t it be impossible to say that someone is wrong for acting against others? After all, if I’m simply following my subjective moral principles, then am I not acting in the right as much as anyone else? What right would you have to judge anyone, if it’s all subjective?

I agree that sometimes good characters do bad things, but I don't think I've seen a good character as untrusting as Venat is.

I'll use an example from Endwalker. Imagine if, after we killed Zodiark, we told absolutely no one that the Final Days would restart due to him no longer shielding the planet. In fact, we don't tell anyone he's dead. Even further, if we, in fact, swore the Watcher to secrecy about this, because we were "afraid the citystates would panic" or "Urianger isn't as trustworthy as I'd like, so it's better to keep him in the dark."

Then we watch, silently, as the Final Days begin again. We watch as people die, forever parted from the aetherial sea and the cycle of rebirth. We watch as the Scions desperately try to figure out what could have possibly started the Final Days up again, wasting time and covering ground we already have intimate knowledge of.

But, since we're not Venat, we did what we did instead.

Wouldn’t that depend entirely on the why though? This comparison only works if you believe that telling anyone would compromise the response to the Final Days, as was the case during the first one.

Not to mention, most people didn’t know about Meteion or despair or dynamis. Going through the role action quests you see the citizenry by and large ignorant to things. I just did the Ishgard one, and the citizens believed the blasphemy to just be another transformed heretic.

What calamity? Once zodiark is summoned and shield ethyris, they're fine. Even after sundered for 12k years the barrier still hold fine. And they manage to be solve their own challenges and problems just fine before zodiark, so why would they need him for something trivial? The Ancients were sad by the fact that the sacrificed souls could not return to the star, so much so that they intended to sacrifice new lifes in order to free them. It's not a simple "oh no, my concepts isn't working as intended, better summon lord zodiark to fix it lol".

Pandaemonium? The Omicron? Ultima? Some other alien race? Whatever the hell we’re gonna be working against for the next 10 years?

And just because they’ve managed so far says nothing about what the future holds. The Ea did just fine for longer, until they didn’t. The Omicron did just fine, until they didn’t. The dragons did perfectly fine, until they didn’t.

It’s inevitable they’ll face another challenge.

That's a possibility, true. Just fyi, what I meant by first explanation is the writer intentionally make things vague to keep us in the dark.

Ah my apologies then I misunderstood what you meant.

[Kozh]

If morality is subjective, then wouldn’t it be impossible to say that someone is wrong for acting against others?

With all these philosophy debate, I think we inherited the spirit of the Ancients, or at least Sharlayan's students XD

Jokes aside, personally for me, yes morality is subjective. Just like any other things which values are determined by human perception. Unlike us human, animals do not have "right" or "wrong". All they follow are their biological needs and instinct to ensure the survival of their species. I'm not a philosopher, far from it in fact, but if I were to use an example it would be our law system. Law is supposed to represent or based around general consensus of society's morality, but as we know it law can (and did) change over time, and can be different across different culture. What is wrong in one country can be innocent in others. Of course, there are things that the majority of humans can agree upon, yet there will always a minority who thinks otherwise.

To be completely honest, I think even our so called "morality" isn't that much different from animal's tendency to ensure their species survival. One of morality function's is to keep society from falling apart even if the action is against our best interest. In order to make sure of peaceful time, it's important for the people to have their needs (basic and emotional) to be fulfilled, otherwise sooner or later there will be conflicts among society. Might that be the reason why "morality" seems like it is on "our side" and "the right thing to do"? This is just a personal musing though, not really related to the discussion.

Pandaemonium? The Omicron? Ultima? Some other alien race? Whatever the hell we’re gonna be working against for the next 10 years?

We don't even know what really happen in Pandaemonium, except for Hesperos going mad over his devotion to Lahabrea. And considering we only do Pandaemonium because Erich ask Themis to not contact the convocation for their help, I doubt it is something that requires them to use Zodiark.

Omicron was already on their way having existential crisis over being the strongest race, or was at civil war. Plus the only contact we got from them are thousand years later after the sundering, and it's because omega followed midgarsomr to Etheirys, not because the Omicron intentionally going at war with us.

Ultima, as in Ultima the High Seraph? It was summoned by Ajora in order to defeat Mullonde, something that may never happen if Venat didn't sunder the world.

And "whatever the hell we're gonna be working against for the next 10 years" is a feeble argument considering we don't really know what kind of other aliens existed, whether they're violent or no, or if they're that powerful either that the Ancients need to use Zodiark.

And just because they’ve managed so far says nothing about what the future holds. The Ea did just fine for longer, until they didn’t. The Omicron did just fine, until they didn’t. The dragons did perfectly fine, until they didn’t.

I could ask the same for the sundered. After the walking plot-armor that is the WoL (a.k.a us the players) died, hundreds or thousand years later, what stopping them from making the same mistake as the Ea/dragons/omicron? Or the Ancients themselves even. We know from the Allag Empire era that the sundered isn't that much different from the Ancients. They seek prosperity, then they stagnated. Or perhaps they will go in the direction of the second world of "Dead Ends".