What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

How is a shark with legs much different to a pig with wings or a walking, talking frog? Both of which were explicitly created by the Sundered to serve as familiars...

To say nothing of the simple fact that we're specifically dealing with a fantasy setting that is not afraid to be whimsical at times rather than embrace gritty, serious realism at every turn.

We also learn that any entity created by the Ancients was specifically forged to benefit Etheirys in some manner. A mentality which doesn't differ terribly from the Sundered, aside from the fact that the Sundered will often violently kill creatures that are an 'annoyance' rather than learn to coexist with them.

[BokoToloko]

snip

But then you have to give fairness where fairness is due and isolate the whismical cases from both sides. And Sundered don't have a "Delete" spell on them so their resources for eliminating threats or "nuisances" are far more limited. Not to mention most of the exterminate cases are less about nuisance and more about threats or collection of resources. On the general, non-whimsical scope.

And, all in all, this has deviated way far from my original premise, because the point argued is that to argue Hydaelyn being a villain leads invariably to the point of Zodiark and the Amaurotians are the good guys when most of the messes we have to deal can be traced to the Ascians, Amaurotians through and thorough. I would've agreed if it was a case of neither the good guys are that good or the bad guys that bad but this is not what people is trying to convey. It's easy to misinterprete the Amaurotians as being good because the setting they live gives a flawed premise. How can we know if they're good when we see them only when they don't face meaningful crises. And if anything comes from the Final Days is that even they aren't immune to them. And Hermes and Ultima Thule drive home the point that the Amaurotian culture itself and their values aren't as perfect as they themselves want to believe. On the other hand, the Ascians DO give good context on the lenghts Ancients go when they are hard pressed. And their actions go lenghts and lenght to show they're not the good guys either and their intentions aren't one inch altruistic. They despise the sundered and if Venat gave them suffering, the Ascians did NOTHING but add three extra cups to it. And they could've just as easily try to nurture the sundered societies to improvement. Hells, they could've become the actual Warriors of Light instead of us (and so far, the game has shown how much the world has improved for out work, despite us being a fraction of an Ascian). And they don't even give a fraction of care. Hell, even their end goal doesn't involve any inhabitant of the Source as they're meant to be the remaining sacrifices so they can return to Vanilla Etheirys and act like nothing happened until the next Hermes individuals comes and brings another apocalypsis because trying to move on is apparently too much for the O so great ancients when the lowly sundered got the lesson after several civilization ending catastrophes.

Also, Midgarsomr and Tiamat himselfs hint the possibility they had a hand in Dragonsong War starting in Azys Lla as they point them to be the root of the miseries. Not to mention, we see several instance of Ascian causing disgraces left and right, specially in ARR. Also, Garlean and Allag catastrophes were full within the Ascian plans and the Ascian themselves helped them to it (Dalamud is a pretty good reminder for both cases). Also, Emet-Selch is very explicit in saying "the remaining habitants of the Source". That really isn't open to any interpretation and it being "non-Amaurotian" REALLY doesn't soften the blow of, you know, commiting more genocide for their egotistical objectives.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Considering she caused far more death than the ascians ever did, while also lying,manipulating,and keeping secrets not only from her own people but from us as well, yes to me she’s a villain. Had she actually told her people the truth, perhaps they could have banded together and prevented the final days from occurring in the first place. But no, instead she kept it a secret. You just keep creating double standards for the sundered where it’s okay for them to do something but wrong for the ancients to do so.The lykaons were also a case of doing it for the greater good as they were going to end up slaughtering the other specimans. Lets not forget btw, if you do diadem, one of the mounts even acknowledges the fact that the "adventurers"(our wol's) from old diadem rendered an entire species almost extinct with only one surviving.Great value on life that. The sundered didn’t exactly get the message, do you remember ironworks? They were willing to sacrifice an entire timeline of people to bring back the wol because they couldn’t move forward in their world. The ancients were planning to move forward though, their whole plan was to resume their duties after the 3rd sacrifice, Venat didn’t give them that chance. Zodiark is without a doubt a “good guy.” He shielded the planet for thousands of years and kept it safe. Were it not for him we would be dead. Elidibus sacrificed himself for us, without him, again, we would be dead.

[BokoToloko]

C

You have literally zero metrics for deaths and pinpointing every death for age as a Hydaelyn kill is as absurd as proclaiming Amaurot culture is the culprit for their suicides. And not only that, the habitants themselves would have to admit it as abnormal which they don't. Not to mention it assumes the sundered lives follow Amaurotian standards when they DON'T. They're a whole different thing with a whole different set of values and yes, different standards for what living entails. And if people actually cursed that condition, then the Ascians would've had their work cut out for them. Just tell them their future selves will be better if they renounce themselves for the good ol' Zodiark. You count as a crime, but literally most (if not all) would see it as anything but that. The only ones who can't cope with that fact are the Ascians, who are completely unable to come to terms with it.

And Zodiark and their followers have NEVER been the good guys, and the fact people try to believe the subversion of expectatives work here is absolutely baffling. You go several expansion trying to fix the messes Ascians leave left and right, witnessing the atrocities they commit and just because they have lived in a cool place that bad bad crystal mommy took away from them they're completely justified and the life and work of the Warrior of Light is a pile of worthless misguided garbage they should've gotten rid of in favor to champaigning the glorious genocides and ruining the lives instead of improving them just because... Elidibus himself tried to killed us. Several times. And literally stripped other worlds from their heroes for the last stand, using them to fuel himself. But, hey, he saved us that one time, so it's all good.

And then I'm the one using double standard when you're using every fringe situation to illustrate a case that's focused on the MSQ and the MSQ alone. And I never said the sundered were good or better, but trying to paint the Ascians and Zodiark as good guys is as disingenuous as it gets. As a matter of fact, any attempt to reduce the plot to a black/white is absurd.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

I never said it was black and white, however, Zodiark and Hydaelyn themselves can be argued are innocent. It’s their hearts that dictate what they do. Zodiark didn’t do anything but good. He saved the planet not once but twice and helped it flourish. Hydaelyn, while she did sunder the world, was due to the actions of Venat, her heart. The story is pretty much morally gray barring a few outliers. The devs themselves however have stated they expect people to take the sides of the ascians/ancients and others to take the sides of the sundered. They promote this kind of debate. They also state that the ascians aren’t in all actuality villains. They’re the heroes of their own story much as we’re the heroes of our own story. It doesn’t change the fact however.Venat did countless bad and to some, evil deeds. I don’t think many would argue the ascians haven’t done bad things, but it’s the grand scheme of things, context matters. They wouldn’t have to do these things if it weren’t for one person and that person is Venat.

As for the death thing, i’ll be generous. Let’s say only 25% of the age deaths count towards hydaelyn’s sundering. That is still trillions of lives lost because of her. We know illness was a foreign concept to the ancients based on Emet’s short story. We know they lived for a much much greater lifespan than the sundered, so yes, that death can indeed be pinned on her. The sundered are sundered shards of the ancients. As far as your comments about them just basically needing to roll over and die, i find extremely amusing. You realize the scions themselves agreed they’d do no different were they in the ascians’ shoes. So it seems you’re the outlier here. Again i bring up Ironworks, who didn’t just give up and die. They placed all their hopes in one person just like the ancients placed their hope in the convocation and Zodiark. They were willing to sacrifice millions of people to bring us back. Guess they’re evil for not rolling over and accepting fate? Even though in the final trial of this expansion both Alphinaud and Alisaie acknowledge they will fight against fate no matter what.

[Rulakir]

Also, Midgarsomr and Tiamat himselfs hint the possibility they had a hand in Dragonsong War starting in Azys Lla as they point them to be the root of the miseries. Not to mention, we see several instance of Ascian causing disgraces left and right, specially in ARR. Also, Garlean and Allag catastrophes were full within the Ascian plans and the Ascian themselves helped them to it (Dalamud is a pretty good reminder for both cases). Also, Emet-Selch is very explicit in saying "the remaining habitants of the Source". That really isn't open to any interpretation and it being "non-Amaurotian" REALLY doesn't soften the blow of, you know, commiting more genocide for their egotistical objectives.

The events in Meracydia aren't linked to the Dragonsong War. If you have evidence the Ascians were involved in telling Thordan I to slaughter Ratatoskr and devour her eyes or telling Nidhogg to enact 1k years' worth of revenge upon Ishgardians for it, then by all means.

It's not meant to soften the blow, it's meant to clarify. I'll also say again, rejoinings wouldn't have been a thing without the sundering in the first place.

She was not suddenly anti-sacrifice she opposed the idea of summoning Zodiark from the start.

I'm going to need a source for this because Venat had no plan that didn't involve Zodiark's aetherial barrier buying them time.

Her faith in mankind was finally rewarded in the end as we became strong enough to stop Meteon without her or Zordiark.

Ah, no. The day was barely won by the WoL who had been groomed for it from the start and given every tool past, present, and future to ensure success, which included the assistance of the unsundered. (Noting that were it not for Emet's sentimentality he would've likely killed the WoL on the spot on the First, so the WoL also had to be a reincarnated Azem for this to play out as well.) Mankind without the WoL and their links to the unsundered absolutely fails to defeat Meteion.

[BokoToloko]

The events in Meracydia aren't linked to the Dragonsong War. If you have evidence the Ascians were involved in telling Thordan I to slaughter Ratatoskr and devour her eyes or telling Nidhogg to enact 1k years' worth of revenge upon Ishgardians for it, then by all means.

It's not meant to soften the blow, it's meant to clarify. I'll also say again, rejoinings wouldn't have been a thing without the sundering in the first place.

It's pretty hard to prove direct link between Ascians because they make sure to not leave marks in history. Also, the rejoining wouldn't have happened if the Ascians had accepted their world was over or actually tried to do the same, WoL, do, try to improve their lives instead. They're the culprits and the ones responsible for the rejoinings in the same way Venat is responsible for the sundering.

Ah, no. The day was barely won by the WoL who had been groomed for it from the start and given every tool past, present, and future to ensure success, which included the assistance of the unsundered. (Noting that were it not for Emet's sentimentality he would've likely killed the WoL on the spot on the First, so the WoL also had to be a reincarnated Azem for this to play out as well.) Mankind without the WoL and their links to the unsundered absolutely fails to defeat Meteion.

Links Venat had accounted for (she was the one who carried Emet to the aetherial sea). And most of the struggle to fight Meteion would've failed if mankind as a whole hadn't supported WoL in any stage, such as refined adamantite and the Garlean contingent. The entire point of the story is ultimately: Help the world get their shit together and see how your deeds carry over. Everyone contributed. It's absurd to overthink the classic trope of the hero being supported by those he saved.

[Rulakir]

It's pretty hard to prove direct link between Ascians because they make sure to not leave marks in history.

Likewise, you can't attribute all the ills of the world to the Ascians. The sundered all on their own are capable of unimaginable cruelty as we've seen repeatedly starting as early as level 15 in ARR.

Also, the rejoining wouldn't have happened if the Ascians had accepted their world was over or actually tried to do the same, WoL, do, try to improve their lives instead. They're the culprits and the ones responsible for the rejoinings in the same way Venat is responsible for the sundering.

Words are easy. Fact of the matter is telling people who've survived a horrific apocalypse where their loved ones were forced against their will to conjure creatures of nightmare that devoured people in the streets, then had more loved ones volunteer to be trapped in indefinite purgatory within Zodiark just to make it stop, that in their moments of trauma and grief need to move on is incredibly tone deaf. Not to mention that returning to the star was a core and important part of their beliefs and those who'd sacrificed themselves to save the world were now prohibited from doing that.

Frankly, I think the game did a poor job of depicting how terrible the Final Days actually were (not helped by the fact that the return of them amounted to virtually nothing so the sundered never got a true appreciation of what the Ancients went through either). It's more like your loved ones are now POWs, but instead of trying to rescue them you should just forget them and move on with your life. No one would do that, especially when they had a means of bringing them back.

Venat didn't give the Ancients any context as to why they should change (not that it mattered because someone was always going to have to face and defeat Meteion, embracing suffering and despair wasn't going to make any difference in that regard). It was basically:

Ancient1: We have a plan to release those you lost.
Me: Great, do it!
Venat: No, don't!
Me: Why?
Venat: Because...! Reasons.
Me: Uh, that's not good enough, go ahead with the plan.
Venat: *sunder* That's what you get for not doing what I wanted!

Links Venat had accounted for (she was the one who carried Emet to the aetherial sea).

You're just reaffirming what I said.

[Lauront]

Her entire plan relies on Zodiark. In terms of what SHB tells us, it was Azem who left the Convocation out of opposition to summoning Zodiark (reasons unspecified.) The dialogue with the Watcher on the Moon does state that her faction opposed his creation, but I believe it's an error from the writers in the EN version, because the SHB dialogue from Hythlodaeus does not frame it that way (instead, it premises the opposition as stemming to the third stage of sacrifices - sources on the SHB stuff here), it's not repeated in the FR version (here), does not fit with the post-Elpis cutscene and it would make mincemeat of her entire plan (relayed by the Watcher himself just after that) which is to bunker up beneath Zodiark's shield while they identified the true cause of the apocalypse. If the 14 wiki is saying this stems from SHB, it's just wrong. That site tends to be poorly written and injects a lot of headcanon/"spin" into things, so source texts from the game are always preferable.

Venat didn't give the Ancients any context as to why they should change (not that it mattered because someone was always going to have to face and defeat Meteion, embracing suffering and despair wasn't going to make any difference in that regard). It was basically:

Ancient1: We have a plan to release those you lost.
Me: Great, do it!
Venat: No, don't!
Me: Why?
Venat: Because...! Reasons.
Me: Uh, that's not good enough, go ahead with the plan.
Venat: *sunder* That's what you get for not doing what I wanted!

As a further point here, even the Scions are left shocked by what they see in the Plenty in the Dead Ends. This is after they had you relay what you learnt in Elpis and Hydaelyn gave her lines about "suffering" and yet they struggled to believe it. Trying to convince through mere words the survivors of a civilisation that had succeeded in extinguishing many ills that this pursuit could end poorly, without hard proof of what was driving her concerns, was never going to cut it, IMO, made all the worse that the cutscene related to it shows these words being offered at perhaps the worst possible time.