What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

She buys right into the notion of herself as some manner of messianic figure, after all.

It's easy to become a god when you've been given a roadmap to the future and sunder all else in creation to be a fraction of the power you wield. I still maintain that (without EW's gaslighting) Venat reads as a villain.

[Theodric]

I still maintain that (without EW's gaslighting) Venat reads as a villain.

Oh, absolutely. She's very much a villain to the Ancients given what the consequences of her actions resulted in but it could easily be argued that she is a villain in the eyes of at least some of the Sundered, too, since if the truth surrounding their existence was to be known I rather suspect many would have some colourful words to say in response. Somehow I doubt that the typical peasant struggling with a life of poverty, disease and poor harvests would have the same callous indifference to Venat's actions as the Scions who are lucky enough to have the world's most powerful fighter at their beck and call in addition to most prominent world leaders.

How convenient, then, that the average inhabitant of Etheirys is not privy to such revelations and likely never will be.

[Kozh]

The second phase of the fight is also poorly designed. At that point we've already beaten it, there's no reason for it to last as long as it does.

I really want to appreciate the fight, but it's hard to do so when it's such a visual vomit. Almost everything are distracting to me. From the swirling background, the boss being so big you can't properly see her, the rotating sigil on the edge of the arena, to the boss attacks themselves (a lot of them are bright explosions).

And yes, phase two being that long is such a weird thing. Thordan also did flail around (and interestingly ignore the aggro list), but it was done near the end. Meanwhile meteion start doing that at what? 30-40% health? I get that they want us to look badass, but c'mon.

At least make her not the easiest boss fight please.....

[BokoToloko]

Honestly? I don't think I can't like/dislike Endwalker without doing the same for Shadowbringers. Whether it's narrative resources, pacing or cliches, both expansions commit the same mistakes/achievements (depending on the eye of the beholder) and they win or lose under a single standard. It seems funny to me that people is already having their nostalgia bout in just the next expansion without realizing that the flaws they point out in Endwalker can also be found in the expansion they revere (Shadowbringers). I do like them both. They're fairly cohesive and have their fair share of twists and emotional moments. They're not a 400IQ only story, but they get to draw the player in, which is more than can be said about other MMOs or game stories.

But these kinds of post are hit or miss for me, because cases of disliking the story can easily turn into "it's not my headcanon so it's bad" and there are several instances here to prove it. And I'm one of the few that didn't really think Hydaelyn was or is a villain, or at least, not when compared to her Amaurotian counterparts. Even when she sunders Zodiark, she does seem to understand the guilt of having the sundered be more imperfect and prone to disgraces far more than Amaurotians/Ascians having any regard towards lifes considered inferior to them when they not only aim to sacrifice a whole planet life to reunite with their loved ones once, but twice and with absolutely no remorse. Not to mention many wars and disgraces that take place in the shards and source happen BECAUSE of the ascians. Obviously, any description of her by the Ascian is going to be bad, the same way the tale we tell to Hythlodaeus, Venat and Emet will obviously depict future Emet as a megalomaniacal madman (any sundered would've thought the same). Each one's point of view is bound to influence the narrative they spin. For any Amaurotian, the Ascians mision to restore the unsundered world would make all the sense. For any sundered, some powerful entities genociding millions of their peers will be nothing short of evil, regardless of their purpose (except for Varis, who quickly gets the backlash for it when he spouts his PoV) and stopping them would be completely commendable.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Honestly? I don’t know how people get this so wrong, they just not read dialogue and just focus on the fanservice parts. They were never sacrificing a whole life’s planet to bring back their loved ones during ancient times. The first two sacrifices were for saving the planet and everyone on it as a whole. The 3rd sacrifice also wasn’t going to be all life on the planet, how does that even make sense? As far as Hydaelyn/Venat goes, you realize despite her preaching about feeling bad, she kept secrets from the ancients and didn’t tell them the truth which could have actually saved them in the long run. While people have shared what they wished would have happened, they have also pointed out the massive flaws and contradictions and non-cohesive story elements. It’s funny you bring up the powerful entity genociding millions. Yeah that’s Hydaelyn maam.

[Theodric]

The various side quests throughout Elpis dispel the misconception that the Ancients were cruel and callous. At this point, it's almost as if some players are simply trying to falsely attribute circumstances to justify the act of genocide that was the Sundering rather than admit that what Venat did was exceedingly cruel, dodgy and inappropriate.

Each to their own, of course - people are free to read into the story however they so wish - but the Ancients had a cohesive society that worked for the betterment of Etheirys whereas what came after them, in the form of the Sundered, proved to be almost entirely selfish and monstrous by comparison.

[BokoToloko]

snip

I should have clarified that the two times they try span far different point in times: the first being after averting the Final Days and making Etheirys inhabitable again, which, yes, its's half (which clearly doesn't deviate my point as changing something double awful to awful still keeps it awful) and it's thwarted by Venta. The SECOND one was intended to happen after all Rejoinings had taken place and that time they DID intend to sacrifice ALL remaining inhabitants of the Source (see first cutscene of Shadowbringers quest). And it's funny that every time someone vilifies Hydaelyn, they're somewhat selective with the kill counts because where Hydaelyn genocided millions (probably less than that, given the losses to the Final Days and Zodiark), how many did Zodiark followers kill? Billions? Trillion? And that's without mentioning the myriad other atrocities they commited outside killing people. But it doesn't even end there, they're 100% unapologetic about it even after dying to you. It's easy to say Hydaelyn is a villain if you forget to mention the "hero" side contribution.

Snip.

What Elpis sidequest show is that any kind of attachment the Ancient had for their creations was superficial at most and that their whole attitude towards their inferior was indiferent, meaning whether life under them died or not didn't matter to them any more than an artist cares for his paintings. That's not even caring about their lives and they're even willing to sacrifice familiars in favor of those that are deemed of greater interest for them with no second thought. And this is aggravated when you consider the fact you're 9/14 an Ancient (just imagine if we were talking about a Shard inhabitant -my guess is they would be deemed defective and summarily erased-) and are treated just as another familiar. And the worst part? They do that when they're at their BEST. No hardships, no struggles, no tragedies and living in a perfect paradise. And do you know how they are when their perfect paradise is gone? You have people that are willing to sacrifice half a planet (not themselves though) to recover the paradise they long for and when it all comes crashing down, you get the Ascians (3 of them still being Ancients, the rest sharing memories of their unsundered selves). The same people that ushers several cataclysm without feeling one bit of remorse and for clearly egotistical purposes. You don't measure people or society just when they're at their prime but also for how they react towards their low points, the same way you can't judge a 1st world country inhabitants to be better than people from a South American country using crime statistics as a basis (because that's what Emet and Garleans do when they justify their superiority).

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

You’re so factually incorrect i don’t even know where to begin. The first two sacrifices were volunteers. They did sacrifice themselves for it did you not pay attention in ShB? They did have hardships prior to the final days, do the side quests and pandemonium. They suffered like anyone else. You realize that we as the WoL and the sundered sacrifice familiars on a daily basis as well too right? Egi’s are created to be used as punching bags. We summon primals in Eden simply to kill then afterwards. They did 2 sacrifices. 1 was to avert the final days. The second was to restore life to the planet. The 3rd sacrifice would be sacrificing a portion of the new life to bring back the souls lost in Zodiark.

As for Hydaelyn, you need to realize she also brought on the severe morTality with illness and incredibly reduced age. Deaths due to those are all on her hands. Multiply that by the amount of shards and yeah….you get into the trillions and we’re still feeling the effects of that to this day.

[Skyborne]

To be honest I don't think we ever got an actual proper look at Ancient society; the shades Emet-Selch made were a glimpse into a specific point in time and what he wanted to show us. Elpis was also specifically a test/research facility full of scientists, and you know how scientists are. You basically have to be detached to an extent, or else you'll end up having a breakdown like Hermes did.

It also seems like peoples' perception of the Ancients are tainted by their dislike of Emet-Selch. Disliking him is reasonable as any other preference; I myself found him contemptible and pitiful and with reddit moments at times. I highly doubt a lot of the Ancients who gave themselves for the planet would really approve of the Ascian's actions; even Emet-Selch in Elpis dumps on his future self for being a madman.

This is also a thread to dump on Endwalker; had plenty of complaints about ShB myself, and its patches especially (not a fan of 5.3 at all).

[Lauront]

Such perceptions are also tainted by their unwillingness to 1) realise that the sundered do much the same things they're criticising the ancients for, if not worse and 2) ditto with respect to RL humans. Ultimately if it's asserted that the ancients somehow 'deserved' their destruction for that (which isn't really a point the story makes), the same conclusion could follow for the sundered.

The sundering having been sprung on the ancients out of the blue, without much of an actual explanation to it, goes some way to re-contextualising the Ascians' actions, even if their methods are detrimental to the sundered IMO, meaning the latter have every right to oppose them, much as the ancients/unsundered would have every right to oppose what Venat did to them.