What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

You literally could not save the Ancients and even if you could it would undo everything that happened after the Final Days which would have meant the Source and even all the shards wouldn't exist.

Yes, not like an AU formed out of the world doomed to the 8UC or anything.

The ending would've been better if the writers took a page from Final Fantasy 6's midpoint. Have all the worlds converge into one, genocide and all, kill off all the Scions, and leave our characters as the survivors in a shattered, but whole, world. The fallout of such an event, and with us pinned as the cause by the other survivors, would make the next story arc a truly interesting reboot. Not to mention our characters would have to live with the knowledge that our actions caused the death of all their friends. The surviving city states from all the old, sundered worlds would quickly vie for power and limited resources.

Plus it could allow the designers to change all the classes and dungeons in a fresh and interesting way. There's really no reason a post-merging game couldn't have different class designs branching off of the "previous world" magic and martial systems.

Very interesting indeed but probably far more than they'd be willing to chew off at this point.

[Fiel_Tana]

I don't consider "fan service" watching your favorite characters get effed over, while your character has no power to do anything about it, and then treats the person responsible as some sort of benevolent goddess.

This!

The inability to even attempt saving the ancients and their world along with the expectation that we view Venat / Hydaelyn as heroic saviour of the world removes all player agency.

I honestly thought during Elpis maybe we'd get a timeline split, conveniently split the world into pre and post graphics and game engine updates, or something completely unexpected. I was so excited to see where it was heading! I loved every second of Elpis… right until we get shunted off into our time that despite Venat warning ‘may have changed’ (my excitement at that moment was ENORMOUS!), didn't at all. A gut-wrenching realisation that nothing we do matters in the end.

This closed timeloop also implicates our WoL in the original end of days (and our past self!). What would have happened had we not told Venat? If we'd stayed behind longer re-tell our story to Emet and Hythlo so they understood what they’d be up against? Or talked to Hermes helping him see he’s not alone, the world is worth saving, help him towards that path?

Originally I loved the idea of Azem and seeing what this new info would bring, but now I wonder why even add Azem into the story? Why make them close friends with Hythlodeus and Emet? Why have Azem as a character exist as a "past self" at all?

Azem knew something terrible is happening, knew about Zodiark, disagreed and left the convocation. They knew Venat was opposed and planning something... and Azem did what? Played Mah-jong while the world burnt? Ate some grapes? At best, had a plan but failed? At worst is ok with their world and all lives (including their best friends!) ending? For a story that leans on the Power of Friendship™ and winning against impossible odds with perseverance... how does any of that make sense? Why tie our WoL to this?

Having the 'us' that is "Azem" and the 'us' that went to Elpis fail and/or not try to save them (not once but twice!), without an option for the player to state anything other than undying love and acceptance of Hydaelyn and her decision takes away player agency over our WoL. No chance to even offer a “…” or snarky reply. It feels terrible!

There’ve been many points I disagreed with the WoLs actions, but it was written so players can understand / headcannon reasons behind those actions. Even now, weeks after finishing the story, I feel a dissatisfaction with the story and disconnect my WoL that only deepens as time passes.

I had hope for Azem’s story being told in Panda or something to address this, but the live-letter has mostly killed that hope off.

Hear… Feel… Think… but NOT too much as to form your own feelings or moral opinions about any characters or plotpoints? :/

[Kyohei]

It does leave bitter taste to get to know a character, appreciate them even but all that knowing they are all actually dead and that's pretty much it (meanwhile the scions get to revive from all and any kind of situations but that's another story). One could even push and say this is borderline malicious.

Another thing is, making Hydaelyn the ultimate mastermind behind pretty much everything happening doesn't do justice to "finding one's own purpose" as it only gives off the feeling of being a manipulated pawn since day one.

[aveyond-dreams]

Looking back, Hermes and Meteion having more time dedicated to them than Zodiark and Hydaelyn was so absurd that I can hardly believe it. Not even 30 minutes with Zodiark and a similarly rushed experience with Hydaelyn. Instead, we had to swallow hours on end of Hermes and his ridiculous "despair."

There were better ways to have resolved some of these plot threads so I'll go ahead and list them below:

Zodiark: rather than encountering "the Watcher" we encounter one of the last remaining Convocation members who opposes Fandaniel's plot and we go with them on a journey down to the moon's subterrain in order to protect Zodiark against Fandaniel and Zenos, possibly failing but still obtaining a "blessing of darkness" to grant us immunity from the Final Days. 75% of the moon's MSQ quests would revolve around this, with the minority remaining being devoted to the Loporrits. Zodiark would display some kind of affection towards his people despite his monstrous appearance, and it is accepted that although he was flawed, he is nevertheless the reason that the star was originally saved.

Hydaelyn: Venat's role is expanded to encompass that of a "fallen angel" in terms of rebelling against the way the ancients behave and would roughly be on par with how Ryo behaves in Devilman Crybaby-someone who is trying to be your friend, when in reality they are harboring the deepest evil inside them. In her arrogance, she grants the ancients something akin to the curse from the fruit of knowledge, triggering the Final Days due to the new emotions stirring in them like despair. Zodiark is summoned to stop this and restore order, and in doing so banishes Venat and her followers, who sacrifice themselves to create her angelic "goddess" form. The two battle in a conflict akin to the Biblical Celestial Schism, resulting in Zodiark's defeat and Hydaelyn being left with a broken world, over which she rules knowing that should Zodiark ever break free that she would undoubtedly be destroyed, but instead of Zodiark it is the WoL who puts an end to her.

Hermes and Meteion: do not exist.

Simple as that!

[Skyborne]

Might makes right, indeed.

Damn you! Damn you and your bles -- simple traveller's ward! (I still can't get over that reveal, along with 'changing the laws of creation' being reduced to 'hurr aether bubble', really sucked the mystique out of everything and I really felt like some kid playing in a sandbox with mommy holding my hand. sundered stronk!)

Wow I didn't realize so many people were dissapoint with endwalker story lol. Did people get too hyped or something? I feel like everything was very fitting and of course a lot of the characters have some holes, especially venat... but I think from what I've read here people are being way more critical of the story than with shadowbringers? I don't know honestly but it feels to me like even if the story has geniune issues xiv msq always had genuine issues that people would look past from and still enjoy the story.

I think it was a victim of the tremendous hype and marketing too, which didn't help matters, yeah. I think a lot of us have been enjoying the story for many years... the end of such a long investment of time is always prone to such things even if they tread carefully and do their best.

Zodiark

Yes, it was really weird that none of the other sundered ascians showed up, assuming that they were true believers and that Fandaniel was truly different from them all. I can only assume they were in other shards and unaware of what happened, and Yoshi all but confirmed that these characters were being kept in the writer's pockets to be pulled out into the future... still. Garlemald 2 would've been a perfect time for at least one to show up and go along the lines of 'Zodiark is dead, but it's still our duty to protect this star, I can't let all of our work have been for nothing'.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Looking back, Hermes and Meteion having more time dedicated to them than Zodiark and Hydaelyn was so absurd that I can hardly believe it. Not even 30 minutes with Zodiark and a similarly rushed experience with Hydaelyn. Instead, we had to swallow hours on end of Hermes and his ridiculous "despair."

There were better ways to have resolved some of these plot threads so I'll go ahead and list them below:

Zodiark: rather than encountering "the Watcher" we encounter one of the last remaining Convocation members who opposes Fandaniel's plot and we go with them on a journey down to the moon's subterrain in order to protect Zodiark against Fandaniel and Zenos, possibly failing but still obtaining a "blessing of darkness" to grant us immunity from the Final Days. 75% of the moon's MSQ quests would revolve around this, with the minority remaining being devoted to the Loporrits. Zodiark would display some kind of affection towards his people despite his monstrous appearance, and it is accepted that although he was flawed, he is nevertheless the reason that the star was originally saved.

Hydaelyn: Venat's role is expanded to encompass that of a "fallen angel" in terms of rebelling against the way the ancients behave and would roughly be on par with how Ryo behaves in Devilman Crybaby-someone who is trying to be your friend, when in reality they are harboring the deepest evil inside them. In her arrogance, she grants the ancients something akin to the curse from the fruit of knowledge, triggering the Final Days due to the new emotions stirring in them like despair. Zodiark is summoned to stop this and restore order, and in doing so banishes Venat and her followers, who sacrifice themselves to create her angelic "goddess" form. The two battle in a conflict akin to the Biblical Celestial Schism, resulting in Zodiark's defeat and Hydaelyn being left with a broken world, over which she rules knowing that should Zodiark ever break free that she would undoubtedly be destroyed, but instead of Zodiark it is the WoL who puts an end to her.

Hermes and Meteion: do not exist.

Simple as that!

The fact they hyped up the moon so long and so much only for it to quite literally be the zone we spend the least amount of time in is….disappointing to put it extremely lightly.

[kpxmanifesto]

The fact they hyped up the moon so long and so much only for it to quite literally be the zone we spend the least amount of time in is….disappointing to put it extremely lightly.

I remember when I first got to the moon, I thought I was already at the end of the game. The way the game was advertised in addition to the events leading up to that point, I thought the moon and Zodiark were supposed to be the finale. Very confusing.

[Silvarer]

I remember when I first got to the moon, I thought I was already at the end of the game. The way the game was advertised in addition to the events leading up to that point, I thought the moon and Zodiark were supposed to be the finale. Very confusing.

They were just using misdirection is all. Make us believe one thing in order to keep the real final area a secret until the end. I thought it was quite effective.

[KizuyaKatogami]

They were just using misdirection is all. Make us believe one thing in order to keep the real final area a secret until the end. I thought it was quite effective.

It’s not even really just misdirection though. Why continue hyping up the area for years(he has always teased it constantly), why advertise it all as some big area and then just release it being an area with honestly probably the least relevance in the expansion ironically. I guess you can call it subversion but, i think as many people will agree, subversion isn’t always good and sometimes “simple is best.” I can argue them completely dropping/contradicting plot points or ignoring them are misdirection/subversion. Are they good? Objectively no they aren’t.

[Lauront]

The traveller's ward thing is strange, because they do make it clear that she is pumping power into the WoL and to a degree that taxes her (so much so Midgardsormr has to disable it, and then she reinforces it later), and that it also allows them to manipulate light more readily (hence being integral to the Exarch's plan in 5.0.) They didn't explain it particularly well, tbh. As for Zodiark, my assumption is they just left the part about the laws of creation unsaid, since it was covered by the second set of sacrifices, and because they never showed the aftermath of those (=restored Source), they never ended up showing or covering that part and just focused on his shielding power. A big issue is they do too much telling, too little showing (especially when it comes to the sundering itself...), and sometimes don't tie things together nicely.