When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Cleretic]

Let's not get into the time travel nonsense. It is already a mess of paradoxes with no start point or original timeline to explain any of it ever happening.

Going forward in the timeline as it is now, there is hope for the future, so long as we find Venat's soul and find a way to permanently destroy it. Cause I have a feeling that thing will turn up like a bad penny every time life gets close to being too happy.

...This is so insane, extreme, out of nowhere and against the whole themes of the story that I had to read back two pages to confirm it was as ridiculous as it seemed. Calling it 'nonsense' would be giving it too much credit, because 'nonsense' suggests a weightlessness to the allegations.

Is this a 'people are born inherently evil' thing combined with an insidiously bad take on Venat? Because Eden confirms this is not that kind of story, and that it's wrong to pretend it is: Gaia is not Loghrif, no matter how much Mitron kicks, screams and overwrites memories, and he was wrong to enforce what he believed her to be.

Similarly, it's wrong to assert Venat's sins to be somehow inherent to and an inevitable consequence of her soul; you're asserting that just because she mad an extreme choice in extreme contexts, she will always make that extreme choice in any context, and therefore should be forbidden from all contexts. Which is both blind to actual evidence of how the game's setting works, and absolutely horrible besides.

[Veloran]

Is this a 'people are born inherently evil' thing combined with an insidiously bad take on Venat? Because Eden confirms this is not that kind of story, and that it's wrong to pretend it is: Gaia is not Loghrif, no matter how much Mitron kicks, screams and overwrites memories, and he was wrong to enforce what he believed her to be.

WoL and Amon (and Zenos) would suggest that people's souls do have an intrinsic character that transcends incarnations. Even with Eden it wasn't so much that Gaia rejected her self-as-Loghrif, rather she didn't want to have her current person and the connections she'd formed destroyed. Of course, Mitron erasing who Gaia was against her will was wrong, but in terms of the connection between the two Gaia acknowledged it and in the end hopes to meet him again after he himself reincarnates.

you're asserting that just because she mad an extreme choice in extreme contexts, she will always make that extreme choice in any context, and therefore should be forbidden from all contexts.

Venat made that selfsame assertion against the entirety of her people.

[Lauront]

WoL and Amon (and Zenos) would suggest that people's souls do have an intrinsic character that transcends incarnations.

Indeed, it's even a hypothesis G'raha puts forward in Labyrinthos.

[Cleretic]

Indeed, it's even a hypothesis G'raha puts forward in Labyrinthos.

Even then... what, do people think Venat's intrinsic character is 'let's shatter the world when it looks too good'? That this was the end goal of all her lives, she just happened to pick the Sundering as her avenue that one time? Reincarnation was a standard part of how the world worked even before the Sundering, wouldn't a soul with a predeliction towards planet-cracking have feasibly, y'know, caused some severe problems before then?

It's hard to get a bead on the 'intrinsic character' of Venat, since we don't have a lot of time with her when she's putting on a genuine face, but I would probably characterize her as 'unyieldingly principled'. With the Sundering, she made the ultimate statement of the Ancients' actual principles, when even most of the Ancients went against them. And even after twelve thousand years of walking the hardest possible road in every possible way (especially emotionally), and never once wavered. And this isn't emotional deadness, or psychopathy or anything someone might want to negatively ascribe to her; she is empathetic to the highest degree, and still goes on.

...which means that, ironically, the Goddess of Light was the greatest Dark Knight we've ever met, as she more than anyone is of Unyielding Principle. She's not someone who chooses violence for fun or for ease, she's someone who will do what's right, no matter what. That's the intrinsic character she would bring, not 'mass destruction because you've got it too good'.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Even then... what, do people think Venat's intrinsic character is 'let's shatter the world when it looks too good'? That this was the end goal of all her lives, she just happened to pick the Sundering as her avenue that one time? Reincarnation was a standard part of how the world worked even before the Sundering, wouldn't a soul with a predeliction towards planet-cracking have feasibly, y'know, caused some severe problems before then?

It's hard to get a bead on the 'intrinsic character' of Venat, since we don't have a lot of time with her when she's putting on a genuine face, but I would probably characterize her as 'unyieldingly principled'. With the Sundering, she made the ultimate statement of the Ancients' actual principles, when even most of the Ancients went against them. And even after twelve thousand years of walking the hardest possible road in every possible way (especially emotionally), and never once wavered. And this isn't emotional deadness, or psychopathy or anything someone might want to negatively ascribe to her; she is empathetic to the highest degree, and still goes on.

...which means that, ironically, the Goddess of Light was the greatest Dark Knight we've ever met, as she more than anyone is of Unyielding Principle. She's not someone who chooses violence for fun or for ease, she's someone who will do what's right, no matter what. That's the intrinsic character she would bring, not 'mass destruction because you've got it too good'.

Honestly with the way the writing is, it truly does kind of seem that way. We’ve been down this avenue before though. Unfortunately, it’s a bit difficult to gauge Venat as the writing for her to me is pretty bad. Her character does one of the biggest 180’s i think i’ve seen in the game. Whether that’s actually intentional or not i don’t know.I will argue against her doing what’s “right.” Her doing what’s right would be giving her people a fighting chance and giving them the knowledge they’d need to at least try and combat Meteion. Regardless though this whole side chain started because we were discussing the comparison between sundered and unsundered. It’s pretty clear they’re treated as two completely different people, especially after Eden.

As for all the time travel shenanigans, i don’t know. It just really seems like another case of, it’s okay when the protagonists do it and it’s totally possible and flexible for them, but if the antagonists wanted to do it it’s not possible. Just another case of lore bending to help the protags i guess.

As far as hating on Venat goes, i think people are fairly justified. In the story where they've stated time and time again both sides in this are grey, neither good or bad etc, they consistently bash "Venat was right, shes a hero,shes a supreme deity" etc into our head. Its extremely contradicting to what was said in the past and also....a little insulting tbh lol. We have someone like Elidibus who walked 12000+ years to fulfill his duty and save his people, hes effectively betrayed by two people he once held dear, and then in the end sacrifices himself for said people and isnt even given a hint of thank or acknowledgement. Meanwhile Venat gets all of the endless praise