When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[KizuyaKatogami]

I have to ask, what does calling Venat a mentally ill psychopath add to this discussion? It just seems like a lot of snarl words that strip her of any agency in her actions.

After all, if she's mentally ill and psychopathic, then she hardly even has the capacity to be responsible for her actions.If you want to condemn the sundering, fine. But your condemnation would actually be stronger if you insist she was an empathic person acting in good faith, who was in fact, not a deranged pyschopath.

Its just my opinion of her. I wasnt just saying that, i also gave reasons as to why i believe it and the overall discussion.Funny how no one ever called this out when people called the Garleans nazi's or what have you. Seems like theres a heavy case of bias people have for their favorite character.

Just sounds like an excuse to hate on a character because they don't like her for other reasons that they'd rather not say out loud. She freely admits it was a cruel thing to do and it gave only a chance at victory but that's better than the zero percent chance they had before.

Except we dont know whether it was 0% chance or no, thats speculation. What other reasons do you think there could be? I already gave reasons as to why i dislike her, backed by the actual in game lore. She admits it was a cruel thing, the game itself paints a different picture and bashes you over the head with the fact shes 100% right, shes great, benevolent, such a hero.The grey morality they promised us isnt there, especially not if you compare it to the grey morality of ShB.

[Theodric]

I've seen far worse said about the likes of Emet, including from some of the same posters now choosing to express 'concern' over the wording used to describe Venat. Given that they're fictional characters and not actually real, I daresay it's utterly bizarre to try and claim that people are somehow flawed, wrong or bad for liking or disliking specific characters.

[KariTheFox]

The issue is that "pyschopathic genocide loving Venat who killed her own people because she hated thier culture so much" is not really a valid or insightful reading of the text. It requires asbcribing motivations and character traits to Venat that are not there. It can be your headcanon, sure. But it's not supported by anything in the game.

If you want to debate the morality of the sundering, you can do that. But it becomes wholly unproductive when all the discussiom keeps coming back to is mudslinging against Venat.

Also we're not talking about the Garleans or Emet-Selch right now, why does the fact that in unrelated conversations some third parties said things about Garleans/Emet-Selch have any bearing on how this conversation is conducted?

[KizuyaKatogami]

The issue is that "pyschopathic genocide loving Venat who killed her own people because she hated thier culture so much" is not really a valid or insightful reading of the text. It requires asbcribing motivations and character traits to Venat that are not there. It can be your headcanon, sure. But it's not supported by anything in the game.

If you want to debate the morality of the sundering, you can do that. But it becomes wholly unproductive when all the discussiom keeps coming back to is mudslinging against Venat.

Also we're not talking about the Garleans or Emet-Selch right now, why does the fact that in unrelated conversations some third parties said things about Garleans/Emet-Selch have any bearing on how this conversation is conducted?

Because i’m being told not to give certain attributes to a character, when this was done to said characters i mentioned and no one bat an eye. Imo there’s a bit to support her absolutely snapping. Between her walk of shame and the 180 her character does whilst also contradicting her own preaching. It seems she had a bit of a mental break and that’s if i’m being generous. It’s not much of a leap when you piece together the lies,secrets, and manipulation she’s done over the gamess lifespan. I wouldn’t say it’s unproductive. it’s getting a discussion going, and if enough people are critiquing the character. then clearly there is something wrong with said character. Whether it be the writing or whatnot, but people have already pointed out the flaws of this, for example the very obvious bias towards her that the writing takes.

[Jandor]

Also we're not talking about the Garleans or Emet-Selch right now, why does the fact that in unrelated conversations some third parties said things about Garleans/Emet-Selch have any bearing on how this conversation is conducted?

It wasn't even that prevalent. You'd think every other thread was derailed with it with how often it's brought up these days.

[SannaR]

I guess I must have missed the part where we learned that the 3rd sacrifice was the first step of them moving on. Do we even know if the 2nd summoning was also done by people who were willing to give up their lives to get the planet healing again? I'm leaning towards the new life being sentient as from what we know Venat's group wanted them to be handed the baton. We also know it wasn't as aetherically dense as the Ancients were and must have looked strange enough that many saw it as mishapen. Depending on what a Meteion says about how planetary lifestreams work it could have been alien life that was reborn. How can so many be sure that if she did choose to tell even post Zodiark the things she knew that they'd of listened? There was an impasse or Elidibus wouldn't have felt a need to detach himself from Zodiark. Heck even if they did listen both Hythlodaeus and Emet agreed that Hermes was making the test a fair one before we escaped.

Yes, Azem went to the volcanic island. Most of the convocation were fine with the choices given the inhabitants of the island saying that any and all who didn't want to die by said Volcano had already done so. Those who stayed we're given to assume we're fine with their at time time presumed death. It was Azem who went nah screw that when I know I can save everyone and got Hythlodaeus to help out by allowing them to use the Ifrita concept. For me the biggest question and what the heck and it looks like a dick move is Azem just deciding to go with neither plan. Either they had prophetic visions or Venat clued them in on some things. Cause it doesn't fit with what little we've been told about their personality.

Are both what Venat did and the rejoinings dick moves? Heck yeah. Is what the future Ironworks a dick move? Not really? They had no way and still didn't have a away to know if their plan succeeded or not. They just know the tower got yeeted and Midgardsormr woke up after a 200yr long nap and regardless of their plan's outcome they still existed.

[redheadturk]

I guess I must have missed the part where we learned that the 3rd sacrifice was the first step of them moving on. Do we even know if the 2nd summoning was also done by people who were willing to give up their lives to get the planet healing again? I'm leaning towards the new life being sentient as from what we know Venat's group wanted them to be handed the baton. We also know it wasn't as aetherically dense as the Ancients were and must have looked strange enough that many saw it as mishapen. Depending on what a Meteion says about how planetary lifestreams work it could have been alien life that was reborn. How can so many be sure that if she did choose to tell even post Zodiark the things she knew that they'd of listened? There was an impasse or Elidibus wouldn't have felt a need to detach himself from Zodiark. Heck even if they did listen both Hythlodaeus and Emet agreed that Hermes was making the test a fair one before we escaped.

Yes, Azem went to the volcanic island. Most of the convocation were fine with the choices given the inhabitants of the island saying that any and all who didn't want to die by said Volcano had already done so. Those who stayed we're given to assume we're fine with their at time time presumed death. It was Azem who went nah screw that when I know I can save everyone and got Hythlodaeus to help out by allowing them to use the Ifrita concept. For me the biggest question and what the heck and it looks like a dick move is Azem just deciding to go with neither plan. Either they had prophetic visions or Venat clued them in on some things. Cause it doesn't fit with what little we've been told about their personality.

Are both what Venat did and the rejoinings dick moves? Heck yeah. Is what the future Ironworks a dick move? Not really? They had no way and still didn't have a away to know if their plan succeeded or not. They just know the tower got yeeted and Midgardsormr woke up after a 200yr long nap and regardless of their plan's outcome they still existed.

I still am of the mindset that Azem went to seek a third option that would eliminate the need both for Zodiark's summoning and the Sundering. Which would very much imply Venat did not tell them either, as the recordings in Anyder suggest.

[SannaR]

I still am of the mindset that Azem went to seek a third option that would eliminate the need both for Zodiark's summoning and the Sundering. Which would very much imply Venat did not tell them either, as the recordings in Anyder suggest.

That is what I've wanted to believe ever since we learned that Azem didn't want to be part of either summoning. Yet the stuff with what Elidibus says to us at the start of Pandaemonium makes it come off that either they had future sight like Mikoto does or a former Azem told an Azem something along the lines of "Hey, you're going to have to say no to the Zodiark plan and to my Hydelean plan. Don't ask me why." Maybe they went to try and find out why the aether was drying up in places as even though we know that's not exactly what caused the Final Days that's what everyone else thought. I'm still confused about the sound that came from the earth since why would that happen if the song is coming from the outside? Unless the song targets a planet's core/sea and works from the inside out. Cause right now Azem's actions or lack of action comes off as the worst.

[KageTokage]

they had future sight like Mikoto does

I'm inclined to believe that the former manifestation of the Echo was just a Matsuno-created plot device (And an extremely inconsequential and useless one at that) they'd rather pretend never existed because if there were people who had absolute premonitions that were certain to happen back in the time of the Ancients, it feels extremely unlikely the Final Days would've caught them off guard as badly as it did even without Venat telling them anything; moreso with the implication that the Ancients could actively control the Echo as opposed to it just happening spontaneously.

When I think about it though, even the vague premonitions of the world's end we were getting in Endwalker are not in line what we've experienced prior and makes me question if the Echo is perhaps linked to the Lifestream and/or Etheriys itself somehow given that we never experienced those visions until an existential threat was looming on the horizon. The implications of a coming Lifestream-related disaster as per the Golden Dhyata's prophecy makes me feel like unraveling deeper secrets of the world is going to be a huge factor in the next story arc.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

If you read what i said, based on Hythlo's dialogue, after the 3rd sacrifice they would return to their duties of stewarding the star. Yes we know both the 1st and 2nd set were done voluntarily. My point isnt so much post zodiark as it is prior. She had the knowledge of everything prior to the final days. Emer has to do his duty whether he believes her or not, we see this with our claim, he thinks its crazy but he still has to investigate. He also knows though, that he was mind wiped. Its as simple as her saying hey, this is why you were mind wiped, this is what happened etc.

My point about ironworks was its the same situation as the ancients. They didnt know if their plan would succeed, however they did understand that messing with time could have the side effect of erasing them all and killing everyone in that timeline, but they went along with it anyway. They were willing to sacrifice every single person in that timeline to bring back the wol and reverse the calamity brought unto them. Thats my point.

Turk explicitly said even if they were. Which is what I was responding to.

Yes i understand that which is why the rest of my post was talking about if it was theoretically true. Sorry for the confusion Thing is though, is it just me or did they kind of drop the whole 3rd sacrifice thing. I dont remember it being mentioned much in Endwalker.