What's next for new jobs after Endwalker.

[Tulzscha]

I feel like my attempts to explain how these jobs don't need to be pet jobs is falling on deaf ears. There are so many unique directions you could take with the concepts of PUP and BST without having to make them pet services, and no I don't think that would mean they're disservices to their original conceptions. Case-and-point look at a job like RDM. Is RDM a disservice to the job's origins of being able to flex between DPS and Healer? Is DNC a disservice by not having dances that inflict random status conditions or random healing? What about SGE? I Don't remember the job with the goofy hat in FFIII that's just a better BLM and WHM using Gundam lasers. You can take inspiration from past jobs and use them to create something that's both designed for the combat system we have in FF14 while also being faithful to that job's identity, and the same is true for a PUP that doesn't have a literal pet.

We can't have this hyper-rigid outlook on what a job's potential can only be because that's just not an effective argument against any job concept. I see people interested in a whip-user of some kind, but did you know that whips were pretty bad weapons in FFIV? I guess we can't have a whip-user then because they would suck just like in FFIV.

Sheesh, so hostile. Seems to be a lot of that around here. Maybe it's me. Aaanyhoo, you say there are many directions to take PUP and ofc there are, I see them in two categories: The puppet is either something that exists and can be interacted with in some way (a "pet" though I use that word loosely) or pure aesthetics. Either way the puppet is the focus.

Given that we're talking about a pre-existing job that focuses entirely around controlling a puppet designing around the puppet being a mere aesthetic seems pointless. At that point it could be anything, why PUP? You could have a Sky Pirate with a parrot that mimics certain abilities. Even DRK has a thing that mimics its attacks. You could have a Mystic Knight or Illusionist that summons doubles or triples of itself for whatever purpose you want. If you're just looking at PUP and thinking, "Oh this idea is cool what if it was used that way instead," that's fine but it might not be a PUP anymore, are you trying to design a PUP or just whatever sort of job sounds cool while taking inspiration from PUP?

The other option then is to have something you can interact with which is a far stronger foundation from which to build and there are still a lot of ways it could go which is what I was thinking about. Whatever comes to mind when you think "pet" just throw it in the bin and consider all the ways in which you could interact with a puppet on the battlefield and what forms said puppet could take. That was my line of thought.

As for your inquiries though I'm sure they were rhetorical and hyperbolic: RDM and DNC hold up well in FFXIV for the limitations put on them in this game. Sage in this game is a Sage in name only which is fine, it wasn't designed around the idea of a Sage in previous FF titles it was designed around a weapon and had to be called something. Just like how ARR SMN was designed around a concept first and named later. And yes whips are fine, I'd love a job with a whip or chain or kusarigama though I do wonder if they would be melee or short-ranged or both, that'd be interesting.

[ty_taurus]

Sheesh, so hostile. Seems to be a lot of that around here. Maybe it's me. Aaanyhoo, you say there are many directions to take PUP and ofc there are, I see them in two categories: The puppet is either something that exists and can be interacted with in some way (a "pet" though I use that word loosely) or pure aesthetics. Either way the puppet is the focus.

Given that we're talking about a pre-existing job that focuses entirely around controlling a puppet designing around the puppet being a mere aesthetic seems pointless. At that point it could be anything, why PUP? You could have a Sky Pirate with a parrot that mimics certain abilities. Even DRK has a thing that mimics its attacks. You could have a Mystic Knight or Illusionist that summons doubles or triples of itself for whatever purpose you want. If you're just looking at PUP and thinking, "Oh this idea is cool what if it was used that way instead," that's fine but it might not be a PUP anymore, are you trying to design a PUP or just whatever sort of job sounds cool while taking inspiration from PUP?

The other option then is to have something you can interact with which is a far stronger foundation from which to build and there are still a lot of ways it could go which is what I was thinking about. Whatever comes to mind when you think "pet" just throw it in the bin and consider all the ways in which you could interact with a puppet on the battlefield and what forms said puppet could take. That was my line of thought.

As for your inquiries though I'm sure they were rhetorical and hyperbolic: RDM and DNC hold up well in FFXIV for the limitations put on them in this game. Sage in this game is a Sage in name only which is fine, it wasn't designed around the idea of a Sage in previous FF titles it was designed around a weapon and had to be called something. Just like how ARR SMN was designed around a concept first and named later. And yes whips are fine, I'd love a job with a whip or chain or kusarigama though I do wonder if they would be melee or short-ranged or both, that'd be interesting.

I'm not at all taking a stance of hostility in the conversation, though I can understand why it could come across that way. Sorry for that.

What I am trying to communicate is that the biggest roadblock in the path for both Puppetmaster and Beastmaster is their perceived dependency on having a pet--something SE has shown they hate working with. This leads both of them to be considered "limited job material" which I sincerely hope never becomes reality because I don't think the limited job system is a pleasant aspect of the game. No one likes seeing their favorite job nerfed or gutted, and for anyone who really likes the Blue Mage in final fantasy lore, unfortunately for them, we've almost certainly condemned Blue Mage to forever be nothing more than a minigame or a way to grind fates. I don't want that for PUP or BST.

For that reason, I try to put out there that pets are not the only possible way these jobs can be interpreted, and moving away from pets will not inherently make them seem "pointless" or interchangeable with any job in concept. That is something that otherwise seems to get ignored because the next person to post is like "so anyway, pets..." There's no telling what kind of impact we realistically have, especially on the English forums, but if there's even a possibility that trying to open up the conversation to other ways to engage with these jobs, then maybe that could drive communication and popularity over alternatives to these more niche jobs.

And yeah, my examples with RDM, DNC, and SGE were are meant to be hyperbolic. Before RDM was released, it was one of the most discussed potential jobs here on the forums, and there were constant debates over the inability to do it justice in XIV's combat system. Now look at the job--one of the most unique and well-appreciated jobs in the game that both feels like a traditional red mage in a sense, but also something more that feels and functions in a game that wouldn't allow for FFXI's RDM, or one from the past. The very same situation can occur with PUP and BST. I'm not saying it will, or that there's a specific solution that must be taken, but I just want there to be open dialogue about these jobs other than "well they're 100% pet jobs so what limited gimmick are they gonna give them."

If we do get PUP, and it does not have a pet mechanic, saying the foundation of its design is inherently worse than if they did have it as a mechanic is nonsense. Either example can result in something better or worse than the alternative in design, gameplay feel, aesthetics, and balance, and that's entirely up to the design team and how they might approach creating something that feels unique with or without a literal pet.

[Tulzscha]

the biggest roadblock in the path for both Puppetmaster and Beastmaster is their perceived dependency on having a pet--something SE has shown they hate working with. This leads both of them to be considered "limited job material"

Hm. How would you define a pet? Is DRK's Living Shadow a pet?

I think the bigger reason for them to be limited jobs is the collectibility aspect - parts for PUP's puppet and various beasts for BST (and all the spells for BLU) which is unnecessary for sure, except maybe for BLU, it's hard to avoid for that one. The fact that PUP could fill all roles also pushes it in that direction but as we see with RDM it doesn't need to do that either.

[ty_taurus]

Hm. How would you define a pet? Is DRK's Living Shadow a pet?

I think the bigger reason for them to be limited jobs is the collectibility aspect - parts for PUP's puppet and various beasts for BST (and all the spells for BLU) which is unnecessary for sure, except maybe for BLU, it's hard to avoid for that one. The fact that PUP could fill all roles also pushes it in that direction but as we see with RDM it doesn't need to do that either.

Well back when Blue Mage was being discussed as a potential job--before we knew about limited jobs, you could very easily have gotten around that aspect by making the spells you learn come from enemies you fought in the job quests. This was during Heavensward where your skilled were gained through your job quests, keep in mind. But we could also just include spells from enemies we fought in dungeons and trials and whatnot. Dragoon took an ability from Nidhogg in Stardiver, and Summoner learns to summon a demi-primal of an optional boss in Phoenix. Rather than go out collecting gimmicky spells, BLU could very easily have just been a structured job like any other who used spell abilities from bosses and enemies past fought without the silliness and repetitiveness. Your versions of the spells could also have differed in their functionality, such as your Bad Breath being a damage mitigation tool, for example, rather than inflicting a bunch of generic conditions most bosses are immune to.

[ChazNatlo]

So moving past Mystic Knight, which I've agreed to disagree with Severian (I'll circle back to it later, but for now we seem to be talking about Puppeteer), I think if I were designing PUP, rather than the Puppet be the weapon, the Puppet would be the battle effects, like the Explosions caused by a Black mage's Fire Spells, or the Reaper's Voidsent attacks. The Weapon would be a Marionette's Cross brace. The cross things a puppeteer uses to control a Marionette. As long as the Player's movement's with the brace are lively enough, it should be suitable as a caster class, or a ranged one. I cannot fathom the mechanic, and honestly I have no personal desire for the class, it'll probably sit at level 80*. But I can see it working.


*Huh. They won't, but it occurs to me that if they added a Tank and a Physical DPS, you could get all the Role Quests for Shadowbringer just by leveling Arcanist.

[SeverianLyonesse]

So moving past Mystic Knight, which I've agreed to disagree with Severian (I'll circle back to it later, but for now we seem to be talking about Puppeteer), I think if I were designing PUP, rather than the Puppet be the weapon, the Puppet would be the battle effects, like the Explosions caused by a Black mage's Fire Spells, or the Reaper's Voidsent attacks. The Weapon would be a Marionette's Cross brace. The cross things a puppeteer uses to control a Marionette. As long as the Player's movement's with the brace are lively enough, it should be suitable as a caster class, or a ranged one. I cannot fathom the mechanic, and honestly I have no personal desire for the class, it'll probably sit at level 80*. But I can see it working.

This really feels like you're just describing Summoner.

I still disagree that anything resembling PUP in XIV has to adhere to a puppet master job fantasy, but I especially do not see why the "puppet" in any iteration would be utilized as a spell rather than a pet. If it blinks in and out of existence like RPR's avatar, then why would the devs try to flavor it as a puppet instead of something like animism or illusions?

[ty_taurus]

This really feels like you're just describing Summoner.

I still disagree that anything resembling PUP in XIV has to adhere to a puppet master job fantasy, but I especially do not see why the "puppet" in any iteration would be utilized as a spell rather than a pet. If it blinks in and out of existence like RPR's avatar, then why would the devs try to flavor it as a puppet instead of something like animism or illusions?

You're just making a fallacious arguement. Why make X when you could make Y instead? If I make a dozen cookies and arrange them in 3x4 rows, and you pick one of the cookies in the top left corner, well why didn't you pick the cookie in the top right corner? Or the bottom-left middle? Or the middle-right? There are literally thousands of potential jobs we could theoretically add to the game, breaking away from traditional job ideas. Why choose any one specific job over any other specific job?

Why choose Puppetmaster when we could choose Beastmaster?
Why choose Time Mage when we could have Gambler?
Why choose Pirate when we could choose Skyseer?
Why choose Shaman when we could choose Arithmetician?
Why choose Illusionist when we could choose Dreamwalker?
Why choose Psychic when we could choose Pictomancer?

There's not a definitive "right" or "wrong" way to make any job a reality. There are ways we could do it that would be successful and others that wouldn't, but which potentialities will result positively or negatively is indeterminate until we actually create it. Just because you cannot see how one way could work doesn't mean it can't be done. That was my whole point with the RDM example I've been regurgitating. A fair chunk of the community could not envision how a faithful Red Mage could be introduced in a way that wasn't game-breaking, and here we are 4 years later. Perhaps there are ways a job could be conceptualized in ways that you specifically can not envision, and that's okay. We are not a race of omnipotent designers.

[Beytran70]

Just give me a sword and pistol combo. Use nomenclature like "Ravager's Brace" or "Mooglemasher's Duo" when naming weapons. I don't care if it overlaps with Machinist, because right now Machinist sucks and its looking more and more like maybe they should have gone Musketeer from the start.

[SeverianLyonesse]

You're just making a fallacious arguement. Why make X when you could make Y instead? If I make a dozen cookies and arrange them in 3x4 rows, and you pick one of the cookies in the top left corner, well why didn't you pick the cookie in the top right corner? Or the bottom-left middle? Or the middle-right? There are literally thousands of potential jobs we could theoretically add to the game, breaking away from traditional job ideas. Why choose any one specific job over any other specific job?

Why choose Puppetmaster when we could choose Beastmaster?
Why choose Time Mage when we could have Gambler?
Why choose Pirate when we could choose Skyseer?
Why choose Shaman when we could choose Arithmetician?
Why choose Illusionist when we could choose Dreamwalker?
Why choose Psychic when we could choose Pictomancer?

There's not a definitive "right" or "wrong" way to make any job a reality. There are ways we could do it that would be successful and others that wouldn't, but which potentialities will result positively or negatively is indeterminate until we actually create it. Just because you cannot see how one way could work doesn't mean it can't be done. That was my whole point with the RDM example I've been regurgitating. A fair chunk of the community could not envision how a faithful Red Mage could be introduced in a way that wasn't game-breaking, and here we are 4 years later. Perhaps there are ways a job could be conceptualized in ways that you specifically can not envision, and that's okay. We are not a race of omnipotent designers.

This "pluripotentiality" argument is really just an argument from ignorance, though. Just because something is *conceivable* does not mean that it would be particularly *good*. And imposing a false equivalency does not change the fact that there are indeed design standards at play that make a job like PUP extremely unlikely.

More to the point, I don't know why people are so obsessed with defending the idea of PUP.
* It's not much of an FF staple so there isn't much incentive to push for it (unlike RDM).
* A lot of propositions would aesthetically/flavorfully feel like an underwhelming SMN/RPR/MCH or even BST clone, and there are clearly better directions to take an animist/illusionist job.
* It had very little going for it to begin with, and even that was largely appropriated by MCH (automaton) and RPR (possession).
* It would add nothing to the game, and insomuch as there are still quite a few job archetypes that are more distinct, more dynamic, and don't dilute existing job archetypes in the game, PUP will likely be shoved out for a more unique spiritual successor.

[ty_taurus]

This "pluripotentiality" argument is really just an argument from ignorance, though. Just because something is *conceivable* does not mean that it would be particularly *good*. And imposing a false equivalency does not change the fact that there are indeed design standards at play that make a job like PUP extremely unlikely.

More to the point, I don't know why people are so obsessed with defending the idea of PUP.
* It's not much of an FF staple so there isn't much incentive to push for it (unlike RDM).
* A lot of propositions would aesthetically/flavorfully feel like an underwhelming SMN/RPR/MCH or even BST clone, and there are clearly better directions to take an animist/illusionist job.
* It had very little going for it to begin with, and even that was largely appropriated by MCH (automaton) and RPR (possession).
* It would add nothing to the game, and insomuch as there are still quite a few job archetypes that are more distinct, more dynamic, and don't dilute existing job archetypes in the game, PUP will likely be shoved out for a more unique spiritual successor.

I mean AST was inspired from a guest character in an off-shoot Final Fantasy that was defined by 1 ability and that's it. Not to mention how games time-and-time again have proved the opposite to your statement about if it can be conceived, but whatever. Continue to preach that your interpretation of the job is gospel, and if you can't see the charm in the concept, then it simply doesn't exist.