What's next for new jobs after Endwalker.

[Tulzscha]

I feel like my attempts to explain how these jobs don't need to be pet jobs is falling on deaf ears. There are so many unique directions you could take with the concepts of PUP and BST without having to make them pet services, and no I don't think that would mean they're disservices to their original conceptions. Case-and-point look at a job like RDM. Is RDM a disservice to the job's origins of being able to flex between DPS and Healer? Is DNC a disservice by not having dances that inflict random status conditions or random healing? What about SGE? I Don't remember the job with the goofy hat in FFIII that's just a better BLM and WHM using Gundam lasers. You can take inspiration from past jobs and use them to create something that's both designed for the combat system we have in FF14 while also being faithful to that job's identity, and the same is true for a PUP that doesn't have a literal pet.

We can't have this hyper-rigid outlook on what a job's potential can only be because that's just not an effective argument against any job concept. I see people interested in a whip-user of some kind, but did you know that whips were pretty bad weapons in FFIV? I guess we can't have a whip-user then because they would suck just like in FFIV.

Sheesh, so hostile. Seems to be a lot of that around here. Maybe it's me. Aaanyhoo, you say there are many directions to take PUP and ofc there are, I see them in two categories: The puppet is either something that exists and can be interacted with in some way (a "pet" though I use that word loosely) or pure aesthetics. Either way the puppet is the focus.

Given that we're talking about a pre-existing job that focuses entirely around controlling a puppet designing around the puppet being a mere aesthetic seems pointless. At that point it could be anything, why PUP? You could have a Sky Pirate with a parrot that mimics certain abilities. Even DRK has a thing that mimics its attacks. You could have a Mystic Knight or Illusionist that summons doubles or triples of itself for whatever purpose you want. If you're just looking at PUP and thinking, "Oh this idea is cool what if it was used that way instead," that's fine but it might not be a PUP anymore, are you trying to design a PUP or just whatever sort of job sounds cool while taking inspiration from PUP?

The other option then is to have something you can interact with which is a far stronger foundation from which to build and there are still a lot of ways it could go which is what I was thinking about. Whatever comes to mind when you think "pet" just throw it in the bin and consider all the ways in which you could interact with a puppet on the battlefield and what forms said puppet could take. That was my line of thought.

As for your inquiries though I'm sure they were rhetorical and hyperbolic: RDM and DNC hold up well in FFXIV for the limitations put on them in this game. Sage in this game is a Sage in name only which is fine, it wasn't designed around the idea of a Sage in previous FF titles it was designed around a weapon and had to be called something. Just like how ARR SMN was designed around a concept first and named later. And yes whips are fine, I'd love a job with a whip or chain or kusarigama though I do wonder if they would be melee or short-ranged or both, that'd be interesting.

[ty_taurus]

Sheesh, so hostile. Seems to be a lot of that around here. Maybe it's me. Aaanyhoo, you say there are many directions to take PUP and ofc there are, I see them in two categories: The puppet is either something that exists and can be interacted with in some way (a "pet" though I use that word loosely) or pure aesthetics. Either way the puppet is the focus.

Given that we're talking about a pre-existing job that focuses entirely around controlling a puppet designing around the puppet being a mere aesthetic seems pointless. At that point it could be anything, why PUP? You could have a Sky Pirate with a parrot that mimics certain abilities. Even DRK has a thing that mimics its attacks. You could have a Mystic Knight or Illusionist that summons doubles or triples of itself for whatever purpose you want. If you're just looking at PUP and thinking, "Oh this idea is cool what if it was used that way instead," that's fine but it might not be a PUP anymore, are you trying to design a PUP or just whatever sort of job sounds cool while taking inspiration from PUP?

The other option then is to have something you can interact with which is a far stronger foundation from which to build and there are still a lot of ways it could go which is what I was thinking about. Whatever comes to mind when you think "pet" just throw it in the bin and consider all the ways in which you could interact with a puppet on the battlefield and what forms said puppet could take. That was my line of thought.

As for your inquiries though I'm sure they were rhetorical and hyperbolic: RDM and DNC hold up well in FFXIV for the limitations put on them in this game. Sage in this game is a Sage in name only which is fine, it wasn't designed around the idea of a Sage in previous FF titles it was designed around a weapon and had to be called something. Just like how ARR SMN was designed around a concept first and named later. And yes whips are fine, I'd love a job with a whip or chain or kusarigama though I do wonder if they would be melee or short-ranged or both, that'd be interesting.

I'm not at all taking a stance of hostility in the conversation, though I can understand why it could come across that way. Sorry for that.

What I am trying to communicate is that the biggest roadblock in the path for both Puppetmaster and Beastmaster is their perceived dependency on having a pet--something SE has shown they hate working with. This leads both of them to be considered "limited job material" which I sincerely hope never becomes reality because I don't think the limited job system is a pleasant aspect of the game. No one likes seeing their favorite job nerfed or gutted, and for anyone who really likes the Blue Mage in final fantasy lore, unfortunately for them, we've almost certainly condemned Blue Mage to forever be nothing more than a minigame or a way to grind fates. I don't want that for PUP or BST.

For that reason, I try to put out there that pets are not the only possible way these jobs can be interpreted, and moving away from pets will not inherently make them seem "pointless" or interchangeable with any job in concept. That is something that otherwise seems to get ignored because the next person to post is like "so anyway, pets..." There's no telling what kind of impact we realistically have, especially on the English forums, but if there's even a possibility that trying to open up the conversation to other ways to engage with these jobs, then maybe that could drive communication and popularity over alternatives to these more niche jobs.

And yeah, my examples with RDM, DNC, and SGE were are meant to be hyperbolic. Before RDM was released, it was one of the most discussed potential jobs here on the forums, and there were constant debates over the inability to do it justice in XIV's combat system. Now look at the job--one of the most unique and well-appreciated jobs in the game that both feels like a traditional red mage in a sense, but also something more that feels and functions in a game that wouldn't allow for FFXI's RDM, or one from the past. The very same situation can occur with PUP and BST. I'm not saying it will, or that there's a specific solution that must be taken, but I just want there to be open dialogue about these jobs other than "well they're 100% pet jobs so what limited gimmick are they gonna give them."

If we do get PUP, and it does not have a pet mechanic, saying the foundation of its design is inherently worse than if they did have it as a mechanic is nonsense. Either example can result in something better or worse than the alternative in design, gameplay feel, aesthetics, and balance, and that's entirely up to the design team and how they might approach creating something that feels unique with or without a literal pet.