What's next for new jobs after Endwalker.

[ChazNatlo]

So moving past Mystic Knight, which I've agreed to disagree with Severian (I'll circle back to it later, but for now we seem to be talking about Puppeteer), I think if I were designing PUP, rather than the Puppet be the weapon, the Puppet would be the battle effects, like the Explosions caused by a Black mage's Fire Spells, or the Reaper's Voidsent attacks. The Weapon would be a Marionette's Cross brace. The cross things a puppeteer uses to control a Marionette. As long as the Player's movement's with the brace are lively enough, it should be suitable as a caster class, or a ranged one. I cannot fathom the mechanic, and honestly I have no personal desire for the class, it'll probably sit at level 80*. But I can see it working.


*Huh. They won't, but it occurs to me that if they added a Tank and a Physical DPS, you could get all the Role Quests for Shadowbringer just by leveling Arcanist.

[SeverianLyonesse]

So moving past Mystic Knight, which I've agreed to disagree with Severian (I'll circle back to it later, but for now we seem to be talking about Puppeteer), I think if I were designing PUP, rather than the Puppet be the weapon, the Puppet would be the battle effects, like the Explosions caused by a Black mage's Fire Spells, or the Reaper's Voidsent attacks. The Weapon would be a Marionette's Cross brace. The cross things a puppeteer uses to control a Marionette. As long as the Player's movement's with the brace are lively enough, it should be suitable as a caster class, or a ranged one. I cannot fathom the mechanic, and honestly I have no personal desire for the class, it'll probably sit at level 80*. But I can see it working.

This really feels like you're just describing Summoner.

I still disagree that anything resembling PUP in XIV has to adhere to a puppet master job fantasy, but I especially do not see why the "puppet" in any iteration would be utilized as a spell rather than a pet. If it blinks in and out of existence like RPR's avatar, then why would the devs try to flavor it as a puppet instead of something like animism or illusions?

[ty_taurus]

This really feels like you're just describing Summoner.

I still disagree that anything resembling PUP in XIV has to adhere to a puppet master job fantasy, but I especially do not see why the "puppet" in any iteration would be utilized as a spell rather than a pet. If it blinks in and out of existence like RPR's avatar, then why would the devs try to flavor it as a puppet instead of something like animism or illusions?

You're just making a fallacious arguement. Why make X when you could make Y instead? If I make a dozen cookies and arrange them in 3x4 rows, and you pick one of the cookies in the top left corner, well why didn't you pick the cookie in the top right corner? Or the bottom-left middle? Or the middle-right? There are literally thousands of potential jobs we could theoretically add to the game, breaking away from traditional job ideas. Why choose any one specific job over any other specific job?

Why choose Puppetmaster when we could choose Beastmaster?
Why choose Time Mage when we could have Gambler?
Why choose Pirate when we could choose Skyseer?
Why choose Shaman when we could choose Arithmetician?
Why choose Illusionist when we could choose Dreamwalker?
Why choose Psychic when we could choose Pictomancer?

There's not a definitive "right" or "wrong" way to make any job a reality. There are ways we could do it that would be successful and others that wouldn't, but which potentialities will result positively or negatively is indeterminate until we actually create it. Just because you cannot see how one way could work doesn't mean it can't be done. That was my whole point with the RDM example I've been regurgitating. A fair chunk of the community could not envision how a faithful Red Mage could be introduced in a way that wasn't game-breaking, and here we are 4 years later. Perhaps there are ways a job could be conceptualized in ways that you specifically can not envision, and that's okay. We are not a race of omnipotent designers.

[SeverianLyonesse]

You're just making a fallacious arguement. Why make X when you could make Y instead? If I make a dozen cookies and arrange them in 3x4 rows, and you pick one of the cookies in the top left corner, well why didn't you pick the cookie in the top right corner? Or the bottom-left middle? Or the middle-right? There are literally thousands of potential jobs we could theoretically add to the game, breaking away from traditional job ideas. Why choose any one specific job over any other specific job?

Why choose Puppetmaster when we could choose Beastmaster?
Why choose Time Mage when we could have Gambler?
Why choose Pirate when we could choose Skyseer?
Why choose Shaman when we could choose Arithmetician?
Why choose Illusionist when we could choose Dreamwalker?
Why choose Psychic when we could choose Pictomancer?

There's not a definitive "right" or "wrong" way to make any job a reality. There are ways we could do it that would be successful and others that wouldn't, but which potentialities will result positively or negatively is indeterminate until we actually create it. Just because you cannot see how one way could work doesn't mean it can't be done. That was my whole point with the RDM example I've been regurgitating. A fair chunk of the community could not envision how a faithful Red Mage could be introduced in a way that wasn't game-breaking, and here we are 4 years later. Perhaps there are ways a job could be conceptualized in ways that you specifically can not envision, and that's okay. We are not a race of omnipotent designers.

This "pluripotentiality" argument is really just an argument from ignorance, though. Just because something is *conceivable* does not mean that it would be particularly *good*. And imposing a false equivalency does not change the fact that there are indeed design standards at play that make a job like PUP extremely unlikely.

More to the point, I don't know why people are so obsessed with defending the idea of PUP.
* It's not much of an FF staple so there isn't much incentive to push for it (unlike RDM).
* A lot of propositions would aesthetically/flavorfully feel like an underwhelming SMN/RPR/MCH or even BST clone, and there are clearly better directions to take an animist/illusionist job.
* It had very little going for it to begin with, and even that was largely appropriated by MCH (automaton) and RPR (possession).
* It would add nothing to the game, and insomuch as there are still quite a few job archetypes that are more distinct, more dynamic, and don't dilute existing job archetypes in the game, PUP will likely be shoved out for a more unique spiritual successor.

[ty_taurus]

This "pluripotentiality" argument is really just an argument from ignorance, though. Just because something is *conceivable* does not mean that it would be particularly *good*. And imposing a false equivalency does not change the fact that there are indeed design standards at play that make a job like PUP extremely unlikely.

More to the point, I don't know why people are so obsessed with defending the idea of PUP.
* It's not much of an FF staple so there isn't much incentive to push for it (unlike RDM).
* A lot of propositions would aesthetically/flavorfully feel like an underwhelming SMN/RPR/MCH or even BST clone, and there are clearly better directions to take an animist/illusionist job.
* It had very little going for it to begin with, and even that was largely appropriated by MCH (automaton) and RPR (possession).
* It would add nothing to the game, and insomuch as there are still quite a few job archetypes that are more distinct, more dynamic, and don't dilute existing job archetypes in the game, PUP will likely be shoved out for a more unique spiritual successor.

I mean AST was inspired from a guest character in an off-shoot Final Fantasy that was defined by 1 ability and that's it. Not to mention how games time-and-time again have proved the opposite to your statement about if it can be conceived, but whatever. Continue to preach that your interpretation of the job is gospel, and if you can't see the charm in the concept, then it simply doesn't exist.

[SeverianLyonesse]

I mean AST was inspired from a guest character in an off-shoot Final Fantasy that was defined by 1 ability and that's it. Not to mention how games time-and-time again have proved the opposite to your statement about if it can be conceived, but whatever. Continue to preach that your interpretation of the job is gospel, and if you can't see the charm in the concept, then it simply doesn't exist.

AST actually helps prove the point I am trying to make, because we didn't get Gambler or Time Mage in XIV and likely never will. It's a better version of both (at least as far as aligning with XIV's job design sensibilities), with a more visually stylized weapon concept than Gambler and a more cohesively realized ability kit fantasy than Time Mage. And it wasn't Corsair either.

PUP, like COR, lacks a strong history of relevance, as well as a core gimmick from XI (it's only official iteration) that would translate well to XIV's systems. On top of that, as I have said, what PUP did have was somewhat cannibalized and appropriated for MCH and RPR (much like what COR had was appropriated for MCH and AST). I continue to hold that we may see something PUP-like, but I think, like AST and MCH, it will likely be brought into XIV under an entirely different job fantasy.

The PUP spiritual successor could even go (and likely will go) the same route of pulling loose inspiration from said "off-shoot" which directly inspired AST *and* MCH. There are already two very likely candidates in Animist and Illusionist that do not have any of the problems PUP has fighting for design space with jobs already in the game. Especially after Reaper, I do not see the devs feeling compelling to double down on yet another arcane possession-type job when there are just better and easier ideas.

You of course are welcome to continue believing in the overwhelmingly improbable.