When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Lyth]

If your references are based off of the Dead Ends, here are the three civilizations that we get to see in detail:

Tessera ('Four'): Edifices surmised to be abandoned residences found. No extant life-forms detected. Deadly plague or extreme environmental degradation likely to have lead to mass extinction.

'Beneath the waves we knew only peace and plenty. We wanted for not, and yet craved more, that our progeny might someday flourish as we never could. Eventually we ventured to the lands above bearing flame and iron, toppling any who dared oppose our might. The world was ours for the taking.'
'This world is not the boundless paradise we were promised. Our population quickly outstripped the habitable land, while seas we thought would shine forever blue ran dry, spoiled in forging the tools of conquest. Cramped homes turned to squalor, and then came the sickness. Our undoing - and the final blessing this star has to offer. We are no longer the fools we once were. Wheresoever life goes, death will follow. Indeed, existence is but the most painful path unto nothingness - and the wise embrace their obliteration willingly.'

The Tesserans lived in the sea and dreamed of expanding outside of it to conquer the entire planet. They achieved their goals and did. The plague and famine that wiped them out is in is a consequence of population expansion and overcrowding after they destroyed all their natural resources.

Okto ('Eight'): Star found in state of violent conflict. Contact successfully made with inhabitants, but deployment of weapons of mass destruction resulted in total annihilation of local population shortly thereafter.

That otherworldly beings should first grace us with their presence is a sign. Indeed, they understand that we - the Global Community - are possessed of the wisdom and compassion needed to guide this star back to the path of righteousness. Yet the Freedom Fighters dare to undermine us, inviting chaos to disrupt the order we labored so hard to build. They have forgotten the history of this star and its once myriad nations. The wars waged, the countless lives lost. They must be brought to heel, the world united under a single standard, no matter the cost.'
'We constructed the Peacekeeper, the pinnacle of engineering and technology. This mighty war machine was designed to rid us of the Freedom Fighters, as well as any other potential threats to the peace we have so long pined for. Its artificial intelligence ensures that this singular function is carried out with cold and calculating precision. Indeed, the 10,000 Peacekeeper units we created have now routed every threat to peace... including us. All that remains is to stand and fight.'

The Global Community of Okto dreamed of unifying the country under one banner. To do so, they created a powerful AI, that even found a cure to prevent disease, in addition to destroying their enemies. They achieved their goal - and then the AI tried to eradicate them, drawing them into one last battle where they destroyed each other.

Unnamed final planet: (This has some similarities to Deka-Pente's description, but it doesn't quite match up).

'A curious traveler visited our star - a bird which proffered these questions: "What meaning does life hold? For what do you strive?" I could find no satisfactory answers, only bittersweet memories of an age long past. There was a time when we were lesser, and in our nescience sought purpose - struggled to justify life's worth. That was, of course, before we achieved perfection. Now, condemned to our paradise, we understand the fatuity of existence. Like the fledglings we once were, the poor bird could not accept the truth. It asked us again and again - hoping, perhaps, our answer might change.'
'There was a time when we yearned to explore the heavens, found purpose in the hope of unveiling life's mysteries. A dream shattered when we reached enlighten, and found it empty. There was a time when we believed in our legacy, thought ourselves marking a worthy path our successors might follow. Efforts rendered futile when we discovered the keys to paradise and immortality. As individuals we struggled to know what was right, yet in today's perfect unity there is naught left to question. We are infinity constricted by the finite, but no more - Ra-la shall grant us the mercy of annihilation.'

The inhabitants of this final world achieved perfection, immortality, and unity in a collective consciousness. And then they got tired of that and created Ra-la to put them to sleep for eternity.

It's all well and good to set off in pursuit of 'perfection', whatever that may mean to you, but you also have to ask yourself why you're doing it. How will this make you happy? If your starting premise is flawed, then your success will be meaningless. And everyone has to find that answer on their own. For example, the society described in the final planet doesn't sound appealing to me regardless of what they've achieved. The conformity sounds miserable. But maybe that's your thing. Bottom line is, no matter how well you achieve your goals, if you're miserable to start with, you're going to stay miserable on achieving them. By contrast, no matter what your hardships are, if you're resilient, you'll always find some small piece of happiness even if everything else gets taken from you.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip.

I think my question here is then what was it exactly the ancients did that warranted their extinction? They had something to strive for, the betterment of their planet. For all we know after that occurred they could have moved on to another planet to better that one as well. Some had doubts and existential problems but as we see via the side quests, they kind of resolve their vows and take the time to remember why they do this and express joy with it.

[EaraGrace]

I think my question here is then what was it exactly the ancients did that warranted their extinction? They had something to strive for, the betterment of their planet. For all we know after that occurred they could have moved on to another planet to better that one as well. Some had doubts and existential problems but as we see via the side quests, they kind of resolve their vows and take the time to remember why they do this and express joy with it.

And that’s a beautiful goal, one of many in the universe at the time the Ancients lived. As Lyth points out and as Meteion says so clearly, they’re is little separating them from the number of civilizations that end up singing the song of oblivion. The only connection, the only thing uniting all these different perspectives was one thing.





Venat recognized the problem.

1. Inevitably all civilizations would face suffering in some form or another. Whether born from war, disease, or simply apathy, there was no escape.
2. Believing one could escape suffering would require either being willfully blind to reality, or worse, unprepared for the harsh truth.
3. Despair and hopelessness was the end result of being unprepared or unwilling to accept this truth, as one would either not be able to withstand the pain of existence, or give up entirely once they realize the futility of it all.
4. Meteion would not just be impossible to resist should one give in, she would be, in the eyes of those she kills, the one in the right. Death and oblivion would be preferred to life.

So the question to ask is not did the Ancients deserve to be destroyed, but would they be capable of finding meaning knowing their end was assured, knowing their paradise would end and knowing that they would suffer, that they had only been “spared it’s biting sting for a time.”

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Which we know, many of them understand their end is assured, so much so they actually see life in death what with reincarnation. They acknowledge that many a time. They still found meaning in doing what they could, and when they were done they would retire, they would be fine with dying, and would have someone else take up their mantle. Regarding what Lyth says about how do we know some other misfortune may come along, yes of course but that’s my point. We can argue that for any society anywhere, that something *could* happen in the future. It doesn’t matter when or where it is. The problem here is when we bring up how they fought against said misfortune. They did what most anyone else would do, and something that even the scions themselves speak about against the final trial. They will fight against fate no matter the cost. Both Alphinaud and Alisaie state this. This is what the ancients did. They fought against their fate of being destroyed like the countless other civilizations that did crumble. The problem here is when Venat takes it upon herself to then play god, and decide no, they don’t get a chance to try and move on. and possibly combat Meteion all the way. But this just loops back to the original topic. When will we stop fighting? We won’t stop striving to better the world and it’s no different from the ancients so i’m just curious exactly what the message with the ancients is. What exactly did they do wrong to warrant all of this. We see with the other civilizations(outside of the dragons i suppose) that each one had some kind of major flaw that led to their downfall and they couldn’t recover.

[EaraGrace]

Which we know, many of them understand their end is assured, so much so they actually see life in death what with reincarnation. They acknowledge that many a time. They still found meaning in doing what they could, and when they were done they would retire, they would be fine with dying, and would have someone else take up their mantle.

No, they didn’t do so under the belief that their end was assured. It was their choice to do so, one made after they felt they fulfilled their purpose. But that’s not an assured end, that’s not recognizing the certainty of their mortality. To say your end is assured is to accept that it will happen regardless of if you desire it, that it is ultimately out of your control whether you will live forever or die young.

And that’s something they vehemently rejected.

Temperamental Spirit: The Final Days taught us to fear a death forced upon us.
The injustice of duties and dreams left unfulfilled. The grief of unexpected partings...
Swift as darkness, cold as ash.
Such tragedy, yet no catharsis! Such truth, yet no consolation...

Regarding what Lyth says about how do we know some other misfortune may come along, yes of course but that’s my point. We can argue that for any society anywhere, that something *could* happen in the future.

It doesn’t matter when or where it is. The problem here is when we bring up how they fought against said misfortune. They did what most anyone else would do, and something that even the scions themselves speak about against the final trial. They will fight against fate no matter the cost. Both Alphinaud and Alisaie state this. This is what the ancients did. They fought against their fate of being destroyed like the countless other civilizations that did crumble. The problem here is when Venat takes it upon herself to then play god, and decide no, they don’t get a chance to try and move on. and possibly combat Meteion all the way.

No, the problem is they did not want to move on, they wanted to move back. They wanted to forget it ever happened, to relinquish any lingering memories of the event and see the world returned to exactly as it was. Not just that Etheirys was livable again, not just that the apocalypse be halted, but that everything went back to the way it was, “To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.” And they took permanent steps to ensure that would happen, the third sacrifice being that.

But this just loops back to the original topic. When will we stop fighting? We won’t stop striving to better the world and it’s no different from the ancients so i’m just curious exactly what the message with the ancients is. What exactly did they do wrong to warrant all of this. We see with the other civilizations(outside of the dragons i suppose) that each one had some kind of major flaw that led to their downfall and they couldn’t recover.

It’s again not about deserving destruction, none of the civilizations deserved it. They did their best, but in choosing to base their future on “paradise,” they blinded themselves to the reality that so long as they lived they would face suffering.

WoL and Amon (and Zenos) would suggest that people's souls do have an intrinsic character that transcends incarnations. Even with Eden it wasn't so much that Gaia rejected her self-as-Loghrif, rather she didn't want to have her current person and the connections she'd formed destroyed. Of course, Mitron erasing who Gaia was against her will was wrong, but in terms of the connection between the two Gaia acknowledged it and in the end hopes to meet him again after he himself reincarnates.

Amon himself seemed to argue against that however when he stated that his motivations were unrelated to Hermes, for the WoL it’s a bit harder to tell as we don’t get to see the alternatives lives Azems soul may have had if they weren’t consistently chosen due to whose soul they possessed. We’re all Azems shards travelers and adventures? Hard to say.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No, they didn’t do so under the belief that their end was assured. It was their choice to do so, one made after they felt they fulfilled their purpose. But that’s not an assured end, that’s not recognizing the certainty of their mortality. To say your end is assured is to accept that it will happen regardless of if you desire it, that it is ultimately out of your control whether you will live forever or die young.

And that’s something they vehemently rejected.



Regarding what Lyth says about how do we know some other misfortune may come along, yes of course but that’s my point. We can argue that for any society anywhere, that something *could* happen in the future.



No, the problem is they did not want to move on, they wanted to move back. They wanted to forget it ever happened, to relinquish any lingering memories of the event and see the world returned to exactly as it was. Not just that Etheirys was livable again, not just that the apocalypse be halted, but that everything went back to the way it was, “To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.” And they took permanent steps to ensure that would happen, the third sacrifice being that.



It’s again not about deserving destruction, none of the civilizations deserved it. They did their best, but in choosing to base their future on “paradise,” they blinded themselves to the reality that so long as they lived they would face suffering.

Again, as i’ve mentioned many times before, why is it wrong for them to want to reverse the damage done, but for Ironworks it isn’t wrong? When there was the possibility of them causing the mass death of millions of not more to bring back the WoL and undo the calamity?

[EaraGrace]

Again, as i’ve mentioned many times before, why is it wrong for them to want to reverse the damage done, but for Ironworks it isn’t wrong? When there was the possibility of them causing the mass death of millions of not more to bring back the WoL and undo the calamity?

With all due respect please reread what I wrote. I made a clear distinction between reversing the damage and wanting to forget the event entirely to the point of sacrificing new life to return the lost. The former can be conducive to moving forward, the other is willing ignorance at best. Graha and the others made clear the events of the 8th Umbral timeline, and wished for the actions of those who lived it to be remembered.