When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[KizuyaKatogami]

The Ancients aren't 'superior' to humanity, though. That was just their own system of biases talking. I'm sure that when we learn more about Dynamis, we'll see the exact opposite viewpoint expressed. 'The Amaurotians? Those aether dense fools couldn't manipulate dynamis if their lives depended on it! Caretakers of the planet? Ha!'

You can only say that our success was dependent on them insofar as they were in our past, and we in their future.

They could manipulate dynamis though, but i’m not going to derail the thread any more than it already has been to try to disprove headcanon. To each his own i suppose.I’ll just say i can say that our success was solely dependent on them not only for this expansion but even in the past expansions as well considering we even needed Emet’s help numerous times. It’s subjective but personally i find them fairly superior. Longer life span,immunity to illness, less prone to violence etc etc.

[Nabby]

Jesus, it's not that hard. Endwalker's main theme is just the philosophy and pitfalls of nihilism 101.

There is suffering, period. The ancients only stayed it off for a time by turning a blind eye to the suffering of the races they created (and destroyed) for their own personal comfort. And sure, that's one way of doing things, until someone like Hermes comes along who sympathises with those "lesser creature's" lives. We also met Venat, who clearly wasn't really on board with the whole "retire and die" thing either. As leader of the convocation, of course someone like Emet would be the pinnacle of believers in the ancient's philosophy as lordly shepherds of the star who's only purpose is to prolong and improve it. But it's clear that's not the case for every ancient. Certainly, it's clear that as part of their mission, they put themselves at the top of the priority list for comfort.

The story quite explicitly spells out that there is no grand higher purpose everyone can aspire to that will solve all suffering. Emet-selch and the convocation might be very happy in their mission as shepherds of the star, but obviously others were not. That's the issue. Hermes wasn't at all fulfilled by the task, and neither was Venat, really. And the convocation's goal wasn't any more inherently noble or less self-centred than any other goal one might have. Even Zenos, though to many people who've grown up with the moral philosophy of the modern era, his goal might seem incredibly immoral, he still succeeds at finding a purpose and following it through, for good or ill of anyone else.

The point is that's all we can do. It's great to aspire to your own moral compass, and I'm sure many of the people around you will be happy if that compass is in line with their own. But at the end of the day, if trying to follow someone else's philosophy does not fulfil you, then you have to find another purpose - one that will be just as inherently valid, even if people oppose you, even if you ultimately fail.

Striving for something without purpose, however, and without knowing why you're doing what you're doing and without believing in something that ultimately you can't prove is more right than anything else, will only lead to despair.

[Denishia]

If Zenos wanted to me to take his challenge seriously, he could have joined me outside of Ala Mhigo trying to get Sculptors and Stethacanthus and then moving onto Ealad Skaan.

[Necrotica]

Suffering is entirely relative though. A person who has never experienced pain (small children) will react loudly and dramatically when first feeling it. An adult exposed to that same pain will wince and move on.

I guess the question is, how much suffering is the right amount per Venat's grand plan? Seems like she overshot just a bit with the sundering. Maybe 14 way split was too much. 7 might have been better. Of course she may have only spit it 14 ways because we went back in time and told her she split it 14 ways because we went back in time and told her she split it 14 ways because we went back in time and told-AD INFINUM BAD TIME TRAVEL WRITING.

ANYWHO. Venat was still an Ancient. They could have policed her much earlier on. A red flag was when she left the convocation but did not return to the star as tradition held. Not gonna bash someone for not buying into the suicide cult mentality, but it definitely shows a certain level of arrogance. Is there any point at all in the story where Venat/Hydaelyn recognizes she is wrong about anything?

I am realizing it is unfair to view Venat as an outsider to the Ancients that brought about their doom. She was one of them. They brought about their own end because they feared one of their own creation so much. Poetic.

[Theodric]

Is there any point at all in the story where Venat/Hydaelyn recognizes she is wrong about anything?

In fairness to Venat, she did proclaim that there was no kindness or justice in the tragedy that she wrought. The Sundered stand to benefit indirectly from Venat's actions but their reaction felt rather muted given that their existence came as a result of the genocide of the Ancients as a whole.

[Cleretic]

ANYWHO. Venat was still an Ancient. They could have policed her much earlier on. A red flag was when she left the convocation but did not return to the star as tradition held. Not gonna bash someone for not buying into the suicide cult mentality, but it definitely shows a certain level of arrogance. Is there any point at all in the story where Venat/Hydaelyn recognizes she is wrong about anything?

The Ancients approached death like a more dramatic version of retirement; when you're finished with your work, you die.

What Venat did wasn't wrong or arrogant, she just didn't feel like her work was done just because she found her role as Azem was done. It's similar to a leader of a country going on to helm a not-for-profit or something rather than just retiring (which I mention off-hand because one of Australia's Prime Ministers did that); it's atypical, but it's not wrong, not everyone feels that their work is done because they reached the top.

We don't really know what led Venat to making that decision, just that she found a rather different destiny. Knowing what we do about Venat, though, it's unlikely her decision was made out of arrogance or selfishness.

[Lyth]

...

Pain and suffering are simply a part of life. The society in which the Amaurotians lived in were not free of them either. Hermes was the most obvious example, but we also witnessed Eric express his sorrow over the loss of his mother and anger towards his father's conduct. We also know that the Final Days is reliant on the ambient emotion to work. If the Ancients were truly a society free from such things, the original initiating outbreak event never would have occurred in the first place.

We know precious little of what Amaurotian society was actually like outside of how they wanted to portray themselves. Every powerful nation invariably thinks that it's the greatest civilization that ever was, so we're not exactly treading new ground here. A third party perspective would be very helpful with this, especially from the nations on other continents. I'll have a good laugh if they pull out the classic Esthar city move, with futuristic cities equipped with dynamis-powered cloaking technology over in the New World. 'Oh, that lot? They're just a bunch of primiti- eh?' 'Oh, don't mind us, we're just the caretakers of the galaxy.'

But even in the absence of that perspective, the more that we get to know the Amaurotians, the more that they seem to simply be just another group of people who just happened to have a lot of magical power. Without that silver spoon and the comforts that came with it, there was no place to hide away their undesirable and unwanted feelings. And that's not a bad thing. Being able to address your feelings around setbacks and work through them is just a part of growing up.

'...But do not avert your eyes. See your life for what it is.'

[KariTheFox]

Has anyone claimed that the ancients "deserved" to die? What happened to them was a horrible, unfortunate tragedy. Thier culture having trouble dealing with accepting loss and moving on from the past has nothing to do with what they "deserve".

[Rulakir]

Gods I hate that cutscene so much. It's from Venat's POV so it's biased and it's clearly not a faithful retelling of events. I mean, if we're not allowed to bring up anything from ShB or Amaurot as fact because it's only "one side of the story" or "Emet's interpretation" then this should be no different. As with most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There's nothing other than that cutscene with the Zodiark Cultist Strawmen group to indicate the Ancients as a whole were like that, on the contrary, we know for a fact they weren't because Venat had a following of "no small number". The question I'd like answered is what was her threshold to not sunder the world?

The Ancients were so divided over the fate of the star that Elidibus exited Zodiark to mediate. I doubt any further sacrifices were going to be made without him in the pilot's seat, which would imply Venat sundered the world in the middle of negotiations. It comes across as not everyone complied quickly enough so, F it, sundered!