When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Veloran]

That doesn't address the underlying problem that I posed. If Zodiark doesn't obey a law of equivalent exchange, then there is no 'sacrifice'. We can endlessly generate wishes for free in a recursive loop. The Ea were wrong. Zodiark is a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. And as you so kindly pointed out previously, that type of magic system where you can just snap your fingers and wish your problems away without a net consequence makes for very unsatisfying storytelling. You sidestep the conflict.

Except it is equivalent exchange. The Ancient were massive aether batteries individually, all of them together channeled through Zodiark is what allowed him to achieve such fundamental and worldwide effects. Meanwhile the third sacrifice was just intended to replace those massive aether reserves, at which point Zodiark's existence would continue to maintain the barrier and there would be no need to use him for such huge sweeping changes anymore.

Furthermore the magic system debate isn't one that simply boils down to ease of use to begin with. It's more about lack of rules, vaguery, and narrative use/portrayal.

but you can't judge its execution without having any indication on how it will play out.

I can judge what we've seen so far. Sure, maybe the next tiers will reveal that Lahabrea is actually having futuresight visions of the Final Days and suddenly WoL will spill the beans, but for now we're basically questing for a bunch of dead people.

Because she knows that Zodiarks presence will allow them to have a temporary and easy answer to suffering, given he’s made to answer the hopes and prayers of any who are struggling.

Funny how she would go on to serve as a supreme goddess answering the hopes and prayers of the suffering.

This, plus the fact Ancients could not manipulate dynamis at all due to that selfsame aetheric density, meant they would have no way to defeat Meteion should she gather enough strength to pierce Zodiarks barrier. Sundering the world in the way she did addressed both issues.

Not to mention that the necessity of using Dynamis to combat Meteion wasn't well established, and Venat saw firsthand that her despair was enough to bring WoL to their knees while the others were unaffected.

I'll also say again that creating aether-thin beings =/= sundering the entire world.

Only if Zodiark is killed does his change to the Aether currents lose effect,

The sundering's effects on Zodiark and the maintainment of the aether currents is something that, at best, Venat could glean by mere inference of WoL's existence in the future. But the truth is that because WoL didn't know the specific circumstances of the first Final Days and the sundering, Venat doesn't actually know the why or how of this. Combined with the fact that by her own words she intends to change the future and doesn't know if the timeline will go unchanged, this means that when doing the sundering Venat was taking a complete shot in the dark that just maybe the particular conditions of WoL's timeline would repeat in this instance and she wouldn't inadvertently destroy the world.

Furthermore as you yourself note, Meteion was gaining power over time - Meaning that even if the 13/14ths density reduction was still sufficient to block Meteion 12,000 years ago, she doesn't know if it will be into the future. If we accept that Venat believed that Zodiark would one day fail and it was merely a stalling tactic, her own actions could only have been detrimental to the length of that timespan they were spared. Even more, as you vociferously insist, she spent quite a lot of time and energy afterwards halting rejoinings, meaning that for all she knew at any moment Meteion would finally overpower the weakened aetherial density of the currents precisely because she herself had stopped their reinforcement. To the original point, this is all very bad strategizing.

otherwise the plan for Meteions defeat would’ve gone unchanged,

What plan? Her "plan" was "I'll try and maintain the status quo forever, and if that doesn't work run away with whoever I can, but maybe if someone comes along and wants to go for it I'll let them do it if they beat me in a fight."

And yes, hiding the fact that you're in a war and then starting an eternal civil war where your side has no idea what they're fighting for or against is extremely counterproductive.

[EaraGrace]

Funny how she would go on to serve as a supreme goddess answering the hopes and prayers of the suffering.

Most religious systems in universe don’t seem to worshipping Hydaelyn are they? The only actions we have record of are Her efforts to stop the calamities, but other events not so much. In fact, given the lack of any record of Her communicating directly with the Sundered, She seemed to stay out of a lot of things entirely.

I'll also say again that creating aether-thin beings =/= sundering the entire world.

Sure, but if you already have to Sunder the world to weaken Zodiark, seems like you’re accomplishing both.

The sundering's effects on Zodiark and the maintainment of the aether currents is something that, at best, Venat could glean by mere inference of WoL's existence in the future. But the truth is that because WoL didn't know the specific circumstances of the first Final Days and the sundering, Venat doesn't actually know the why or how of this.

She knew enough to develop an entirely new form of magic for the purpose of imprisoning him, giving Hydaelyn that power and betting everything on it.

Combined with the fact that by her own words she intends to change the future and doesn't know if the timeline will go unchanged, this means that when doing the sundering Venat was taking a complete shot in the dark that just maybe the particular conditions of WoL's timeline would repeat in this instance and she wouldn't inadvertently destroy the world.

A reminder that in each timeline enervation is developed by Venat and her faction for that purpose, meaning they would carry at least some understanding of how it functions yes? And the Watcher directly says they wished to keep Zodiarks magicks working, it seems clear they were aware and trying to avoid that potentiality. I’m not sure what you’d ask of them to do, given we don’t seem to disagree on what their goals were they seemed to do everything and were successful in accomplishing them.

And if they failed then in their eyes the point is moot, as the world would be doomed either way right?

Furthermore as you yourself note, Meteion was gaining power over time - Meaning that even if the 13/14ths density reduction was still sufficient to block Meteion 12,000 years ago, she doesn't know if it will be into the future. If we accept that Venat believed that Zodiark would one day fail and it was merely a stalling tactic, her own actions could only have been detrimental to the length of that timespan they were spared. Even more, as you vociferously insist, she spent quite a lot of time and energy afterwards halting rejoinings, meaning that for all she knew at any moment Meteion would finally overpower the weakened aetherial density of the currents precisely because she herself had stopped their reinforcement. To the original point, this is all very bad strategizing.

There are several presumptions we are making here. First is that weakening Zodiark necessarily means weakening the laws he’s established. Given the removal of his heart, which we know weakens the primal, didn’t raise any concern and given how willing they were to fuck around with soul exchange, I’d say the laws he wrote are pretty durable. Provided he’s not, yknow, dead.

What plan? Her "plan" was "I'll try and maintain the status quo forever, and if that doesn't work run away with whoever I can, but maybe if someone comes along and wants to go for it I'll let them do it if they beat me in a fight."

Imprison Zodiark, gather aether, and buy humanity time to recover from the Sundering and reaffirm their lives in the face of inevitable oblivion. Then, with the resources and technology developed, take the fight to Meteion.

And yes, hiding the fact that you're in a war and then starting an eternal civil war where your side has no idea what they're fighting for or against is extremely counterproductive.

Once again, if Hydaelyn had lost or the fight was never fought in the first place then it is the position of Venat and her group that the world was doomed. Igniting a conflict under that circumstance would not be counterproductive, and what do ya know you know it turned out to be correct.

Zooming out a bit, the complete plot-aegis of the protagonists is probably the worst aspect of the story as a whole. I feel practically nothing for the character's struggles or the threats against them, because it's all utterly toothless. At least in Shadowbringers when WoL was coming down with the Light-cancer that could be internalized by the player, but even that is an outlier in like eight years of nostakes character progression. This even extends to most of the tertiary characters.

The Light Warden threat had exactly the same amount of teeth as the Scions sacrifice in Ultima, a potential end that had zero chance of occurring due to meta textual elements. If anything it had less teeth, as the PC has to survive, while other characters can be killed and there still be a video game to play.

[Veloran]

Most religious systems in universe don’t seem to worshipping Hydaelyn are they? The only actions we have record of are Her efforts to stop the calamities, but other events not so much. In fact, given the lack of any record of Her communicating directly with the Sundered, She seemed to stay out of a lot of things entirely.

Hydaelyn is venerated practically whenever she was referenced earlier in the game, Minfilia explicitly prayed to her and the Zodiac Braves clearly revered her as well. Moreover she directly communicated with the sundered all the time in the form of her visions and calls to those with the Echo. And need I remind you when she interceded to save WoL or Krile's lives? I'd say that's providing her self-described "supreme goddess" powers to stop hardship and loss.

Sure, but if you already have to Sunder the world to weaken Zodiark, seems like you’re accomplishing both.

You don't have to sunder the world to sunder Zodiark. The world wasn't just sundered as a consequence of sundering him, she did so intentionally.

She knew enough to develop an entirely new form of magic for the purpose of imprisoning him, giving Hydaelyn that power and betting everything on it.

We have no idea if the sundering ability was specifically made by Venat, or if she made use of an existing concept. Regardless WoL literally tells her what she'll do, the point is she doesn't actually know the circumstances of what happened, if the world survived due to something WoL simply didn't know about. It was a complete hail mary - IE bad strategy.

A reminder that in each timeline

We have no idea if there were any other timelines. WoL told Venat that Zodiark continued to work until he was killed, the point is that she was acting in the dark as to how or why

There are several presumptions we are making here. First is that weakening Zodiark necessarily means weakening the laws he’s established.

He's weaker when we fight him. His laws are aetherical in nature and the currents protecting the world naturally would have lost 13/14ths density along with everything else. There is every reason to seriously doubt the efficacy of his shield after he's sundered.

Imprison Zodiark, gather aether, and buy humanity time to recover from the Sundering and reaffirm their lives in the face of inevitable oblivion. Then, with the resources and technology developed, take the fight to Meteion.

Her "plan" was "I'll try and maintain the status quo forever, and if that doesn't work run away with whoever I can, but maybe if someone comes along and wants to go for it I'll let them do it if they beat me in a fight."

Once again, if Hydaelyn had lost or the fight was never fought in the first place then it is the position of Venat and her group that the world was doomed. Igniting a conflict under that circumstance would not be counterproductive, and what do ya know you know it turned out to be correct.

It's the position of extreme ecological activists that the world is doomed if the human population isn't reduced and the exploitation of the environment isn't stopped. Is it justified - Not to mention productive, intelligent strategy - to bomb cities to stop people from living their self-centered, self-destructive lifestyles?

[Lyth]

If Zodiark was able to be powered through assorted organic matter, why didn't the Amaurotians feed Him an equivalent amount of shrubbery and small animals in the first place to achieve their goals, rather than sacrificing themselves to do it? It also raises some interesting philosophical questions with the Ea and their discovery of the second law of thermodynamics. If Zodiark doesn't operate on a law of equivalent exchange, then the Ancients have effectively created a perpetual motion machine and proven the Ea wrong. Sacrifice 5 Amaurotian souls for energy, activate miracle of your choosing, and then sacrifice 5 shrubs to return the Amaurotian souls from the graveyard back to your hand. Wish for more shrubs when you run out. Repeat endlessly until all your wishes are fulfilled and you win the game. Sounds like an idea for a blue/black deck design. I'd be on board with that plan if it were so simple, except that it would make for a boring story.

I remember an interesting discussion with Veloran a couple of months ago about Sanderson's laws as they relate to magic systems. A lot of what the Ancients do with Creation magic is, at present, soft magic. One of the critical insights from the lecture was that it's important to have a victory condition established in advance. Even with soft systems, you can't just snap your fingers and solve the problem for free, or else you've simply sidestepped the conflict.

This is also part of the reason why Shadowbringers outlines the centuries of hard work, cooperation, and sacrifice involved in allowing G'raha to alter the past, and even then it was off by a few centuries. That's also presumably why the Alexander storyline emphasized that Alexander consumed large amounts of energy with every time leap and would have drained the planet dry had it not sealed itself off into a single timeless instant. If time travel ever becomes so simple and trivial that you can alter past events without effort and consequence, then we can arbitrarily go back at our leisure and undo any event that we don't like. Character deaths are meaningless because we know that we can always go back in time and resurrect them at will. As attached as you may be to the people on Elpis, it's really not good for the future direction of the story, and the writers would do well to not cave into that.

[Veloran]

If Zodiark was able to be powered through assorted organic matter, why didn't the Amaurotians feed Him an equivalent amount of shrubbery and small animals in the first place to achieve their goals, rather than sacrificing themselves to do it?

All life on the planet was 99% wiped out by then. This was the point of the second sacrifice. Maybe if they knew about it in advance this could have been avoided.

If time travel ever becomes so simple and trivial that you can alter past events without effort and consequence, then we can arbitrarily go back at our leisure and undo any event that we don't like. Character deaths are meaningless because we know that we can always go back in time and resurrect them at will. As attached as you may be to the people on Elpis, it's really not good for the future direction of the story, and the writers would do well to not cave into that.

That is currently what we're doing with Pandemonium though. Except rather than time traveling to save people, we're time traveling to solve a problem that either they could have solved then or we could have solved now, all while working alongside people that are living with a guillotine above their heads that we're basically just ignoring.

Surely I can't be the only one extremely uncomfortable with the fact that we're still doing side content in Elpis despite knowing everyone and everything there is going to get dunked soon anyway, right? It's like if you were doing the Nier raids before even starting the Shadowbringers MSQ.

[Lyth]

...

That doesn't address the underlying problem that I posed. If Zodiark doesn't obey a law of equivalent exchange, then there is no 'sacrifice'. We can endlessly generate wishes for free in a recursive loop. The Ea were wrong. Zodiark is a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. And as you so kindly pointed out previously, that type of magic system where you can just snap your fingers and wish your problems away without a net consequence makes for very unsatisfying storytelling. You sidestep the conflict.

I'll judge Pandaemonium as a whole when it's complete. At this point, all we have are character introductions, and we really don't know what's at stake if we 'fail'. We don't even know what Lahabrea's motivations at this point are. Is he a workaholic scientist with no regard for his wife's death? Is he deeply sentimental and trying to bring his wife back from the dead by fusing her soul with his creations? How does any of this relate to the Final Days? What exactly does Themis intend to accomplish, and why was he and Azem expecting your arrival? Writing about time travel is always a risky move in storytelling, but you can't judge its execution without having any indication on how it will play out.

[sidurgu-12]

this has been one giant circle thats going nowhere. can we just stop already?

[Lyth]

...

And as you rightly pointed out, the Ancients are very (aetherically) dense. So if you're talking equivalent exchange, we're talking about an equivalently large-scale sacrifice of countless lives. And it's not hard to see why there would be opposition to that.

If you watched through the same lectures that you linked, you don't really have to have a rule-driven hard magic system in place to create a satisfying narrative. The Ancients' creation magic is very much a soft system. Concentrate on the form of the thing that you want to create, snap your fingers, and then there it is. You can solve pretty much any problem that you like with such a system in place. The limitation is the cost, which is what sets the victory condition. You can save your planet - but at the cost of half of the population of Amaurot. You can restore the destruction wrought by the Final Days - but at the cost of a quarter of the population of Amaurot.

Without that cost, you sidestep the conflict. If it was just a matter of saving up enough aether crystals or biological waste products to pay Zodiark, then there never was a conflict at all. You just snapped your fingers and solved the problem. If it was just merely a question of aether, why do you need to sacrifice lives at all? Get every Amaurotian to spare a snifter of their bounteous reserves. But we're not trading in aether. We're trading in souls. And that's why the price paid has meaning.

That's the same reason why time travel as a 'magic system' has to have a victory condition/constraints in place as well in order for it to be satisfying. If you can undo events at will, nothing has consequences, and there is no conflict. You just snap your fingers and undo the bad event. Elpis very deliberately teases you with this by setting the constraint before you enter and then toying with it as you travel through the area.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And as you rightly pointed out, the Ancients are very (aetherically) dense. So if you're talking equivalent exchange, we're talking about an equivalently large-scale sacrifice of countless lives. And it's not hard to see why there would be opposition to that.

If you watched through the same lectures that you linked, you don't really have to have a rule-driven hard magic system in place to create a satisfying narrative. The Ancients' creation magic is very much a soft system. Concentrate on the form of the thing that you want to create, snap your fingers, and then there it is. You can solve pretty much any problem that you like with such a system in place. The limitation is the cost, which is what sets the victory condition. You can save your planet - but at the cost of half of the population of Amaurot. You can restore the destruction wrought by the Final Days - but at the cost of a quarter of the population of Amaurot.

Without that cost, you sidestep the conflict. If it was just a matter of saving up enough aether crystals or biological waste products to pay Zodiark, then there never was a conflict at all. You just snapped your fingers and solved the problem. If it was just merely a question of aether, why do you need to sacrifice lives at all? Get every Amaurotian to spare a snifter of their bounteous reserves. But we're not trading in aether. We're trading in souls. And that's why the price paid has meaning.

That's the same reason why time travel as a 'magic system' has to have a victory condition/constraints in place as well in order for it to be satisfying. If you can undo events at will, nothing has consequences, and there is no conflict. You just snap your fingers and undo the bad event. Elpis very deliberately teases you with this by setting the constraint before you enter and then toying with it as you travel through the area.

This is the basis for the protagonists though. We literally have a magic stone that we snap our fingers and it undoes any bad thing that happens to us.Yshtola time and time again has proven she can just undo any bad thing that happens to her. There hasnt been consequences for the protagonists for a long time, and i dont see anyone questioning that, so why is it all of a sudden impossible or convoluted to apply it to the antagonists? You state it wouldnt be good for the story. So are mass amounts of plot armor and plot holes to keep characters safe and alive also not good for the writing?

[Lyth]

...

The example that Sanderson gives in the lecture that Valorian linked contrasts Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields in the Lord of the Rings as a means of illustrating the principle. The same solution is used to resolve both of them (army shows up, we win). The difference is that Helm's Deep has a victory condition placed upfront (survive for five days). This, he argues, is the reason why the former feels satisfying, while the latter feels like Deus Ex Machina.

The use of Azem's soul crystal in Ultima Thule is very deliberately set up. Y'shtola tells you before she makes her sacrifice that you can use the soul crystal to summon them all back. However, she tells you that you can't do that, because it would reset all of the dynamis effects that your companions' sacrifices are sustaining. That's the victory condition right there. There's another critical piece of information that you have from earlier that tells you how the conflict will be resolved, namely that line from Hyth:

'Perhaps when our time comes to return to the star, we shall remember these days that we have lost.'

Which the writers deliberately make a point of reminding you mere moments before Azem makes the critical move.

Now imagine what happens when we take away these elements. We never hear anything about how the soul crystal can or cannot be used, and we aren't given any reason as to why Emet would have his memories back. Then the use of Azem's crystal loses its impact. For magic to be effective as a storytelling device, the readers need to know the constraints to solve the problem.