When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Theodric]

I wouldn't consider the deliberate eradication of one's own species to be the equivalent of 'saving all life'. Especially when the entity responsible for the act of genocide was possessed of knowledge that could have been exploited in order to genuinely find a way to at least make a genuine attempt to save everybody.

There's humans in our world who are possessed by the same thinking patterns as Hermes and Venat yet that doesn't mean that it would be justified for humanity as a whole to be wiped out to make way for something different based on the unrealistic expectations of self-sabotaging and self-loathing saboteurs.

As an example, I don't believe that extremism is required in order to carve what they declare to be a better path forward. I'm sure there's many who, for example, might hypothetically support the destruction of oil and gas pipelines in the name of the 'greater good' only to proclaim that anyone dying from the realistic consequences of lack of access to heat and food in the aftermath is but an 'unfortunate but necessary sacrifice'.

Bringing it back to FFXIV, specifically, we're talking about the elimination of an entire species. Just as the Sundered weren't keen to roll over and die so too can the same be said of the Unsundered. Neither had any obligation to perish on behalf of the other, yet it is precisely because of Venat's actions that they were forced into a such a situation in the first place.

[Rulakir]

I saw this image and it reminded me of this thread. :P



Since it bears repeating, Venat is never once chastised by anyone for what she did. She has a couple of lines of dialog where she expresses some amount of self-awareness, but that's it. She also didn't have a plan that went beyond getting someone to Ultima Thule and essentially hoping for the best, which isn't sufficient justification for an act as drastic as the sundering. The sundered were also far more susceptible to the effects of the Final Days, so being able to more easily interact with dynamis was not without devastating side effects. Not to mention attributing Venat to saving life is laughable. Trillions of lives were lost as a result of her actions and trillions more were on the table had her dice roll on the WoL not worked out.

As for the Ancients, the issue is that their entire civilization is being judged on the basis of a slice of life in one facility dedicated to creation magicks and the twisted interpretation of one man who decided if everything can't live then nothing should live. It's brought up that neither the sundered nor our own cultures are any better, in many ways arguably worse, so if that's the metric by which we determine who gets to survive or not then we all fail. You can not like what they did, sure, I don't like a lot of what current humanity does, but that's a far cry from saying they deserved to be wiped out because of it.

[EaraGrace]

Except #1 the Unsundered didn't turn, and #2 if the third sacrifice had been allowed to go through [which I still believe was moral to do because if it comes down to us against another group of lives, and the allowing of that other group to live dooms those I love, I am saving those I love, thank you very much]

That’s not really a moral defense though. That’s simply a statement of preferences, that you value life inherently more because you have emotional attachment to it. It’s not necessarily terroble to feel that way nor is it all uncommon, but the question over what is right or moral to do in the face of that remains unanswered.

Zodiark would have kept them safe for at *least* the 12 thousand years that He did, so they would have, with the correct information in hand had Venat told them what was up had plenty of time to solve the Meteion problem. To save one's own loved ones, even at the cost of other's lives, is a perfectly moral and understandable thing to do.

To save one’s loved ones is indeed noble. To sacrifice innocents to bring them back not so much. My feelings can be summed up with a quote.

To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn’t wisdom, it is weakness.

I saw this image and it reminded me of this thread. :P



Since it bears repeating, Venat is never once chastised by anyone for what she did. She has a couple of lines of dialog where she expresses some amount of self-awareness, but that's it.

A good thing I think, she recognized the inherent cruelty in her plan but did her best to give those who suffered the best chance to survive. Chastising a dying woman after she helped save all life would be pretty off the mark for me personally.

As for the Ancients, the issue is that their entire civilization is being judged on the basis of a slice of life in one facility dedicated to creation magicks and the twisted interpretation of one man who decided if everything can't live then nothing should live. It's brought up that neither the sundered nor our own cultures are any better, in many ways arguably worse, so if that's the metric by which we determine who gets to survive or not then we all fail. You can not like what they did, sure, I don't like a lot of what current humanity does, but that's a far cry from saying they deserved to be wiped out because of it.

At no point have I said I’d agree with Hermes or Meteion in their conclusions on the Ancients and life itself. I’m simply pointing out that “no paradise is without its shadows” is an accurate statement when applied to the Ancients and that Hermes struggle with what was going on in Elpis is at the very least understandable. Whether it be Elpis or Pandaemonium or any other number of different things Amaurot was not a perfect paradise that would have inherently avoided the failings and trappings of other, far greater societies. That’s the bottom line I think.

[DPZ2]

So, 38 pages of notes from a variety of sources, on a variety of issues ...

A couple of questions I had as reading. Perhaps there are direct answers?

1) The Final Days for the Ancients ... exactly how long between the eradication of memory for the Triad and their beginning? Days? Years? Decades? Millenia?

2) Is there a direct reference to the cause? In other words, where, exactly, is The Cause explicitly explained/invoked? I didn't come across that yet, and I'm sitting at the final trial right now. All of those other fine civilizations seemed to destroy themselves quite nicely without intervention.

3) Who would have believed Venat's recounting of the days before the eradication of memory for the Triad? Since the Ancients cannot detect dynamis, how would they verify the validity of any warning, given that the Triad could swear it never happened?

4) What references do you all have that Zodiark would actually have surrendered "souls" (with newly created bodies) back to the Ancients? Is there a document or cut-scene where Zodiark promises to do so if he only gets a "bit more Aether"? Could it be the desperate logic of traumatized people who are now dependent on a God-like being? I'd want to read the actual contract myself before assuming it was more than what every other Primal we've ever encountered desires rather than wishful thinking.

[Jandor]

1) The Final Days for the Ancients ... exactly how long between the eradication of memory for the Triad and their beginning? Days? Years? Decades? Millenia?

We don't know. Probably not that long, in the grand scheme of things.

2) Is there a direct reference to the cause? In other words, where, exactly, is The Cause explicitly explained/invoked? I didn't come across that yet, and I'm sitting at the final trial right now. All of those other fine civilizations seemed to destroy themselves quite nicely without intervention.

The Final Days? Dynamis powered magic, used by the Meteia.

3) Who would have believed Venat's recounting of the days before the eradication of memory for the Triad? Since the Ancients cannot detect dynamis, how would they verify the validity of any warning, given that the Triad could swear it never happened?

Venat seems to think it's plausible she'd be believed, but that it would incite panic and in-fighting rather than rallying together and fighting back.

4) What references do you all have that Zodiark would actually have surrendered "souls" (with newly created bodies) back to the Ancients? Is there a document or cut-scene where Zodiark promises to do so if he only gets a "bit more Aether"? Could it be the desperate logic of traumatized people who are now dependent on a God-like being? I'd want to read the actual contract myself before assuming it was more than what every other Primal we've ever encountered desires rather than wishful thinking.

We don't know. With Elidibus being the heart and all, it seems plausible Zodiark would give them back, or at least as many as He can. I'd assume whatever is sacrificied has to be of roughly equal value to whatever is released though.

[DPZ2]

With Elidibus being the heart and all, it seems plausible Zodiark would give them back, or at least as many as He can. I'd assume whatever is sacrificied has to be of roughly equal value to whatever is released.

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression that Elidibus was no longer a part of Zodiark at that point (which was the Tragedy of Elidibus). I'm pretty sure every Primal I've encountered has desired more Aether than they currently possess, so that contract would really look good about now.

[Jandor]

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression that Elidibus was no longer a part of Zodiark at that point (which was the Tragedy of Elidibus). I'm pretty sure every Primal I've encountered has desired more Aether than they currently possess, so that contract would really look good about now.

Zodiark doesn't seem to have much, if any, will of His own. Without a 'heart' He seems content to just chill out in the primal equivalent of sleep mode. Also, if I recall correctly, the sacrifice plan was being formulated while Elidibus was still in Zodiark, the arguments about going ahead with it are what caused him to withdraw himself from Zodiark.

Now I am kind of suspicious that Elidibus reappearance suddenly quells the majority of the dissent, but I don't really doubt that Zodiark would have held up His end of the bargain to the best of His ability. I would probably be more suspicous that it's just a ploy for more aether if Zodiark was the only Ancient primal, but Hydaelyn never seems particularly aether hungry either, and they're almost certainly more similar to each other than they are to modern primals.

[Absimiliard]

Zodiark doesn't seem to have much, if any, will of His own. Without a 'heart' He seems content to just chill out in the primal equivalent of sleep mode. Also, if I recall correctly, the sacrifice plan was being formulated while Elidibus was still in Zodiark, the arguments about going ahead with it are what caused him to withdraw himself from Zodiark.

Now I am kind of suspicious that Elidibus reappearance suddenly quells the majority of the dissent, but I don't really doubt that Zodiark would have held up His end of the bargain to the best of His ability. I would probably be more suspicous that it's just a ploy for more aether if Zodiark was the only Ancient primal, but Hydaelyn never seems particularly aether hungry either, and they're almost certainly more similar to each other than they are to modern primals.

It wasn't so much that Zodiark was content to sit in primal sleep mode as it was he had no choice in the matter. Sundered and bound as he was, there was simply no way he could act. The separation of Elidibus did to some extent deprive him of his own will, but he did retain his instincts -- and those instincts told him to be free. He was also still beholden to the urgings of the Ancient souls within, whose motivations remained, above all else, the preservation and restoration of Etheirys and her people.

As for aether; Zodiark contained the souls and combined aether of innumerable Ancients. It seems rather likely he might not even have been capable of running out in the first place. Hydaelyn was created using a much smaller number of sacrifices, and we've seen several times over the course of the game the decline in her abilities as her aether reserves dwindled. It was this depleted state that ultimately forced her to claim Minfilia, just as it forced her to utilize Krile a handful of times. We learn during the battle with her that she kept back just enough aether to be able to fight us with her full power exactly one time. It's not always immediately evident, but there are times (again, Minfilia and her trip to the First being the prime example) where Hydaelyn did take steps to acquire more aether.

[Lurina]

Rather than continue picking over the fine points of why people experience discomfort and moral dissonance with the Venat/Ancient narrative for another 2 months, I've decided it'd be easier to just allow myself to be radicalized against the themes of the story. It was actually fine for the Amaurotines to sacrifice millions of catgirls to save their people. Life invariably exploits life, and only betraying your own species is morally debased. The Ancients had no responsibility to the wider universe or any other form of life. Emet-Selch did nothing wrong.

This is not a serious post. Don't quote me.

[Rannie]

This is not a serious post. Don't quote me.

=P just cause you said not too